Racing @ "06" Nats

[Six-is-Enough]

Here is my suggestions for racing classes for 2006. (please note; this is not me complaining,bitching,crying, or whatever. Just some suggestions to keep the racing current for what is going on in the SyTy world.) Flame away.Changes in yellow.

2006 SyTyNationals Racing Rules

Pure Stock
*Tires must be real street tires, no drag radials or stickies
* Stock style exhaust and catcon must be in place (resonator on Saudi trucks)
*Fuel pump may be replaced.
*Fuel pressure regulator may be replaced with an adjustable type
*Truck must weigh at least 3700# with driver. Ty must weigh 4000# with driver.
*Stock unported heads must be used. If L35s are on the truck, they must be unported, and the owner must provide documentation from GM that this truck was delivered with L35 heads.
*Stock GM chip only-ECM controlled boost,IC pump etc.
*Stock type intercooler pump (Jabsco/Johnson Shurflo etc.) Steel lines may be replaced with rubber. Stock upper and lower CCHE.
*All other parts not mentioned must be stock or stock type replacements
Ty gets a .4 head start
So GT's get a 2.0 head start


Stock Turbo
*Any Tire Allowed
*Stock type leaf rear suspension,No traction bars etc. Fiberglass springs,lowering blocks permitted. *Any trans *Front suspension-any
*Stall converter is permissable.
*AWD
*Stock manifolds No headers
*Stock TD06-17 turbo with stock 8cm exhaust housing
*Stock unported heads must be used. If L35s are on the truck, they must be unported, and the owner must
provide documentation from GM that this truck was delivered with L35 heads. *SyTy Intake manifold
*Engine internals, cam, etc, must all be stock. Production block with wet sump oiling.
*Stock upper intercooler, no restriction on rest of system
*Alcohol/water injection as anti-detonant permitted.
*No NOS
*Stock ECM (injector driver mods ok)
*Any chip
*Truck must weigh at least 3500# with driver, Ty must weigh 3800# with driver
*Ty gets .4 head start



*Super Stock
*Any tire allowed
*Any suspension.
*AWD
*Any exhaust
*Headers ok
*Turbo restricted to 3" inlet
*Any GM Part number unported heads. Stock size valves. *SyTy intake manifold
*Stock style internals. Production block with wet sump oiling.
*Any camshaft
*Any intercooler mods or type
*Alcohol/water injection permitted
*NOS not allowed.
*Stock ECM (injector driver mods ok)
*Any chip
*3300# weight minimum with driver. 3600# for Ty
*Ty gets .4 head start

Top Stock (old Modified)
*Any tire.
*Any suspension
*Any trans
*AWD
*Headers ok
*Turbo : anything
*Heads : Any
* Block must have wet sump oiling & even-fire crankshaft
*Any intercooler
*Alcohol/water injection permitted
*NOS not allowed
*3100 weight minimum (with driver) for both vehicles.
*Any ECM *Ty gets a .3 head start

Outlaw Sy-TY
*Must either be a Sy, TY, or So Gt original chassis.(LS1 in a TY, Twin Turbo V8 in a SY, etc.)
*OR a Sy-TY Based motor in another chassis.(Sy-Ty V6 in a Fiero,Sy-Ty v6 in a mustang, Sy-Ty v6 in a late model s-10,etc.) Race Directors decision.
*2wd or Awd
*NOS allowed
*Turbo(s) & Supercharging any
*Odd -fire v6's in a Sy,Ty,So GT chassis only.
*No minium weight


Rental/Tow/Daily Driver
*Run what ya brung! *Bracket-race format.
*This class will be ran as time allows between other classes.
SyTy Brackets
*Bracket race format.
*Must be a SyTy/SoGt


All classes subject to disqualification for safety
issues and or Techs or Race organizers findings.
************************************************** ************************************
$500 Protest deposit is in effect.
Protest MUST be in writing along with the $500 CASH.
Tech inspectors are exempt from the fee.
Protest MUST be specific in regards to the area
(engine, drivetrain, weight) of the vehicle.
If Protested and tear down is to be done owner will
either tear down or be disqualified.
If protested owner is found to be cheating $500. will
be returned to protestor.

If protested is found NOT to be cheating, $500 goes to
owner

TECHS AND RACE ORGINIZERS DECISIONS ARE FINAL, AND CAN
REMOVE OR DISQUALIFY ANYONE FOR ANY REASON (Must be
unanimous).

If any protests are filed involving a vehicle owned by
a member of Nationals staff, that staff member will
automatically be excluded from the tech judgement
process.

 

[sy1907]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Me thinks jeremy's changes are gooder

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

So looks like Super Stock is where I'm at.

 

[SonomaGTlover]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

All looks good to me...but a modified SoGT is still not qualified to run competitive anywhere but bracket format. How about a SoGT head start for all classes? I'd like to race other than Tow class.

How fast are the Super Stock SY's? It appears that this is where I would fit in with VORTECS and HEADERS. I ran a 16.1 with minor issues, probably capable of mid 15's. Would the 2sec. head start be close or am I still the underdog?

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

You'd need at least 3 sec's to be even with me and that was before the 50's and a tune, and not turning the boost up.. :dunno: I think 3.5 sec would probably be good for the slower Super Stock class with you. That gives to a chance to run with the 12.0 guys.

 

[Sy769]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Below are the current racing rules. They were developed not to cater to any particular build but to approximate various stages of modification.

With those changes mentioned Super Stock and Modified become a bit blurry. Allowing anything beyond unported L35's in Super Stock would be an unfair advantage to all the stock head trucks that currently run in super stock.

Replacing Pro and Unlimited class with "Outlaw" might cause some problems as well, In effect you could have a AWD 90 V6 truck competing against a 2wd twin turbo V8 lighweight monster. Not exactly fair IMO
There might be a need to revamp the Unlimited class to allow V8's though as more of those trucks are being built. But allowing V8's against V6's with all else being equal will not go over to well.

Regarding SoGt's There isn't any clearcut fair method to class them. Being an entirely different animal I can't assign a headstart advantage. Depending on the mods the trucks could be extremely fast or slow.

Opening up a class to anything with a SyTy based engine could be opening up a can of worms. What is a syty based engine? Turbo 90 V6? That is a very open interpretation. That could pit a Fiero with a ton of horsepower against a much heavier Ty? Sort of unfair to the Typhoon owner don't you think? The three sportmachines are my primary concern. I think the bracket class might be a good place for those vehicles that have v6 transplants.

Just my take on it though we will definitly consider all input.

Patrick


SyTyNationals Racing Rules

Pure Stock
*Tires must be real street tires, no drag radials or stickies
* Stock style exhaust and catcon must be in place (resonator on Saudi trucks)
*Fuel pump may be replaced.
*Fuel pressure regulator may be replaced with an adjustable type
*Truck must weigh at least 3700# with driver. Ty must weigh 4000# with driver.
*Stock unported heads must be used. If L35s are on the truck, they must be unported, and the owner must provide documentation from GM that this truck was delivered with L35 heads.
*Stock GM chip only-ECM controlled boost,IC pump etc.
*Stock type intercooler pump (Jabsco/Johnson Shurflo etc.) Steel lines may be replaced with rubber. Stock upper and lower CCHE.
*All other parts not mentioned must be stock or stock type replacements


Stock Turbo
*Any Tire Allowed
*Stock type leaf rear suspension,No traction bars etc. Fiberglass springs,lowering blocks permitted. *Any trans *Front suspension-any
*Stall converter is permissable.
*AWD
*Stock manifolds No headers
*Stock TD06-17 turbo with stock 8cm exhaust housing
*Stock unported heads must be used. If L35s are on the truck, they must be unported, and the owner must
provide documentation from GM that this truck was delivered with L35 heads. *SyTy Intake manifold
*Engine internals, cam, etc, must all be stock. Production block with wet sump oiling.
*Stock upper intercooler, no restriction on rest of system
*Alcohol/water injection as anti-detonant permitted.
*No NOS
*Stock ECM (injector driver mods ok)
*Any chip
*Truck must weigh at least 3500# with driver, Ty must weigh 3800# with driver
*Ty gets .4 head start





*Super Stock
*Any tire allowed
*Any suspension.
*AWD
*Any exhaust
*Headers ok
*Turbo restricted to 3" inlet
*Stock or L35 unported heads. Stock size valves.
*SyTy intake manifold
*Stock style internals. Production block with wet sump oiling.
*Any camshaft
*Any intercooler mods or type
*Alcohol/water injection permitted
*NOS not allowed.
*Stock ECM (injector driver mods ok)
*Any chip
*3300# weight minimum with driver. 3600# for Ty
*Ty gets .4 head start

Modified
*Any tire.
*Any suspension
*Any trans
*AWD
*Headers ok
*Turbo : anything
*Heads : GM part numbers Any mods but no pontiacs or canted valve/brodix
* Block must have wet sump oiling, stock stroke even-fire crankshaft
*Any intercooler
*Alcohol/water injection permitted
*NOS not allowed
*3100 weight minimum (with driver) for both vehicles.
*Any ECM *Ty gets a .3 head start


Pro SyTy
*Any tire.
*Any suspension
*Any trans
*AWD
*Headers ok
*Turbo : any
*Heads: any
* Anything goes for motor (90 degree v6)
*Intecooler any
*NOS not allowed
*3000 weight minimum (with driver) for both vehicles.
*Any ECM *Ty gets .2 head start

Unlimited SyTy
*2000 min weight
*Anything goes for motor (90 degree v6)
*NOS ok
*Must be a SyTy/SoGt
*2WD or AWD

Rental/Tow/Daily Driver
*Run what ya brung! *Bracket-race format.
*This class will be ran as time allows between other classes.
SyTy Brackets
*Bracket race format.
*Must be a SyTy/SoGt

 

[JSM]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

I don't think any rules will be perfect. Best is to adjust if needed based on the last years attendees.

I do see some v8's coming in very near future.

I like the outlaw class, even though you could build a combination that falls in it that won't be competive it still covers the out of norm builds.

Nothing will be super even matchup until we get 500 trucks to attend, and class each one based on mods to the T. Until then be a compromise on the classes.

I think jeremy's intention of allowing vortec heads is good, as many trucks now have just swapped heads but don't have a BIG build on top of it. Again a compromise.

 

[Six-is-Enough]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

All looks good to me...but a modified SoGT is still not qualified to run competitive anywhere but bracket format. How about a SoGT head start for all classes? I'd like to race other than Tow class.

How fast are the Super Stock SY's? It appears that this is where I would fit in with VORTECS and HEADERS. I ran a 16.1 with minor issues, probably capable of mid 15's. Would the 2sec. head start be close or am I still the underdog?

I was just trying to give a place for the GT's to race heads up. As for SS the winning truck ran some 12.2 this year and next year the fast trucks in SS will be in the 11.7-11.8 range. At least I plan to be:tup: . As far as giving you say 3 -3.5second head start I would not have a problem with that. The avg trucks in ss this year were running mid 12's. So we would have to see how fast your set-up would be, but it is not my call and I won't ask subie-girl to change anything either if I was you. Just a tip.

 

[Six-is-Enough]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Below are the current racing rules. They were developed not to cater to any particular build but to approximate various stages of modification.

With those changes mentioned Super Stock and Modified become a bit blurry. Allowing anything beyond unported L35's in Super Stock would be an unfair advantage to all the stock head trucks that currently run in super stock.

I plan on running SS next year with stock heads and have no problem competeing with Vortecs unported. Tuning wil decide the fastest Truck, not which heads. I also don't think any one doing a mild build up of there trucks would put anything but vortec's on.(stock short block, just heads and cam). The time of L35's is gone. This kind of mod would not be able to compete with the all out trucks Denny,Phil, Maxtor, Ed,Hoovers,etc. I know they all won't show but lets pretend.

Maybe you could let porting and such to stock heads only in SS? Just a thought.

Replacing Pro and Unlimited class with "Outlaw" might cause some problems as well, In effect you could have a AWD 90 V6 truck competing against a 2wd twin turbo V8 lighweight monster. Not exactly fair IMO
There might be a need to revamp the Unlimited class to allow V8's though as more of those trucks are being built. But allowing V8's against V6's with all else being equal will not go over to well.

An awd truck unless odd fire would fit into Top Stock under my proposal. And frankly I would expect the Top Stock vehicles to out run the Outlaw participants. A few 9 sec AWD Trucks out there now, there is no 9 second conversion anythings that I know of.

Regarding SoGt's There isn't any clearcut fair method to class them. Being an entirely different animal I can't assign a headstart advantage. Depending on the mods the trucks could be extremely fast or slow.See previous post.

Opening up a class to anything with a SyTy based engine could be opening up a can of worms. What is a syty based engine? Turbo 90 V6? This is where you come in. Make a decision and go with it, thats it. Lets pretend the fiero guy shows up. He has a 4.3 turbo with a Sy intake, questionable but I doubt it would run 9's, so I (if I was P.J.) would let it in.That is a very open interpretation. That could pit a Fiero with a ton of horsepower against a much heavier Ty? A fiero with a Turbo V6 against a Twin Turbo LS6 TY.I don't know about fair but damn interresting to watch! Sort of unfair to the Typhoon owner don't you think? If the Ty has even fire V6 he would fall into one of the other classes. Odd fire or V8 in the Ty and it would be fair in my opinion.The three sportmachines are my primary concern. Agreed but maybe we could intice someone to show if they had a class other than brackets to race in.Bracket racing intimidates some people and it takes alot of practice to be decent at it.I think the bracket class might be a good place for those vehicles that have v6 transplants.

Just my take on it though we will definitly consider all input.Well lets pretend all of the fast trucks show.Robert from Sweden, Hoovers, Phil Long, Denny Raab, Ed Hess, Maxtor, and that guy from Michigan. All of these Trucks would fit into TOP STOCK! Talk about fun. Lets see who has can walk the walk and talk the talk. I would skip racing my truck just to watch! Maybe it would even inspire others to build up their trucks to this level or inspire these guys to push the limits even further. Just my :2cents: . I know Patrick you are open to suggestion and will consider this.Thats why I proposed it so early. Maybe a vote by racers to decide?

Patrick

 

[SonomaGTlover]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

I don't want to ruffle any feathers or try changing a format that seems to work, I'm just thinkng out loud. Bottom line about racing my SoGT's is.... I just wanna race.
I do't care if I get a 1 sec or 3 sec head start, just let me shave time off every year I attend.

As far as the rules go it'd be nice to race heads up but ya know what?.?.?
That's what the bracket format is for anyway. It evens out all of the trucks reguardless of mods so every race is close and the winners unpredictable. IMO there are too many classes for the number of trucks that attend and we should try to get get more of them racing together in fewer classes.

Fewer classes would allow for bigger trophies and more exciting competition. More competitors in each class will make for a more earned win worthy of a little trash talk revenge.

That's just my :2cents: and I'll be happy reguardless of the format because I am racing against my best time each year.

 

[Sy769]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

All good input. I'd like to hear from some of the big build trucks though.

 

[tbauer03]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

i like the idea of allowing unported vortecs in the superstock category. This is probably biased because it would allow me to not run against the likes of the hoovers and it would give me a fighting chance but i think that is what we all want a fighting chance. and if vortecs are running against stock heads yes they will flow more and have potentially more power but i think the turbo is the going to make the biggest differences in ets not the cylinder heads so by having categorys limited by 3"inlet restrictions makes more sense to me.
Denny Rabbs Syclone runs l35's and we all know what it is capable of so i see no reason why l35's cannot compete against vortecs

 

[Six-is-Enough]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Ted would share ET's from the nats this year and your best ET's ever. Just so we can compare what a change to SS could possible do.

 

[Tydriver]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Just my

....


I've seen the mentioning of a Turbo LS6 or even a TT LS6 truck @ next years nats. I realize that I am not the only person building one of these trucks (or a similiar project) so I am going to speak only for myself..


I have no desire to compete in any level of racing at the nats.. If I was to make a pass or two, it would only be in the capacity of an exhibition run or two. I wouldnt anticipate myself competing heavily with my project. I dont have the desire to turn my truck into an all out track vehicle with rollbars, drag radials, and all the required safety equipment needed for the 10 sec passes.. As a result, I have significantly scaled back the HP/TQ goals of my project to reflect more of a quick reliable street truck VS an all out track monster.

I do find it amusing however, that after each "Nats" this subject is always brought up on how to "improve racing" @ the nats, but the bottom line is with so many varying builds to each truck, its "UN POSSIBLE" to satisfy everyone.

I've said it in the past, and I'll say it again, NHRA doesnt cater the rules to specific cars/builds, people build cars to meet NHRA's rules and requirements. If your combo doesnt meet the current rules, then enjoy your ride for what it is, and the way it is, or change your build to meet the class you want to participate in... Personally, I'd prefer seeing one larger class where people run a DIAL IN, and you run for consistency vs racing the boost gauge thats soo prominent in this community. But thats just me.. Its not what people here want to see but in all reality, its the closest thing to real world street racing and heads up.. The guy in the other lane doesnt sit and wait for you and your boost gauge to be happy before he leaves.. :tup:

If you really want to see change in the rules, step up and help plan the event and help out the planning committee. I'm sure Patrick,Jason G, The Dourty's and the rest of the planning comittee would welcome any sincere attempt at helping them plan the event.

 

[tbauer03]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Ted would share ET's from the nats this year and your best ET's ever. Just so we can compare what a change to SS could possible do.

my best et ever is a 13.3 but that was at the 2003 nationals and that was under the stock turbo class. I have not yet raced my car with the new engine and turbo but my goal is 11.99999999999999 it may be able to do better than that but i just want to get an 11 sec pass.

i think tydriver made a very valid post though about building your truck to meet the racing requirements not the race rules being catered to individuals wants or needs.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Honestly, the classes should be setup to encourage fair competition between the contestants, given certain limiting factors. Right now I see an existing flaw in the Super Stock category that hasn't been exploited. The allowance for any camshaft. Everyone fast in the SS category has a stock motor running high boost on stock heads. If any one of those people were to run a cam, it would increase the volumetric efficiency and static airflow through the engine as well as raising the powerband which ought to give a significant increase in power. It's only coincidence that nobody has done this yet. If there was Big Money in this competition, I would have already done it because it's such an obvious performance advantage in my opinion.

When it comes to making power, there's no question the cylinder heads are one of the absolute largest factors in performance (especially when you look at N/A motors where boost is not a factor to skew results.) Allowing Vortec heads in a stock motor category seems absurd to me. There should be a class for guys like me and Dig and Mad Mike and all the guys with BONE stock motors trying to run as fast as possible. (I beleive this class is currently called Super Stock). When I think of competitive times in SyTy land, the "fastest stock motor" times are obvious currently heated competition which should be represented at the Nationals. Phil Long obviously set the bar with his 11.10 run but I think everyone is aware of the people next-fastest.

2 further points to support my position on not allowing Vortec heads in the stock motor class:
1.) Nobody is putting Vortec heads on a stock bottom end, or very, very few and far between.
2.) Nobody is building a motor with Vortec heads and then not putting in a cam (most times the Comp 412-415-422s), or not porting the heads, etc. That is - the vast majority of people with built bottom ends and Vortec heads are also modifying the rest of the motor. It only stands to reason that if you have the motor out and apart, it would be logical to modify the rest of it at that convenient time.

The classes should center around performance capability of the engine with given factors, in combination with the largest groups of SyTyers out there currently working within those certain confines. Obvious ones to me include Stock Chip, Stock Turbo, Stock Motor, and then perhaps Stock Block/(stock stroke) Crank. And maybe a final class for those with stroker cranks - although I don't know that there's been any that've raced at Nationals in recent years.

 

[Six-is-Enough]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

One of the reasons I proposed the changes in the classes was to promote more racing. Instead of a lot of classes with a few trucks. Fewer classes and more trucks in them. I agree the heads and cam could be mega et gains, but few have done that or ran impressive ET's with those mods. As far as heads if you don't want vortec's in SS then maybe we should toss out L35's too. I know a local truck around here that has L35's and he can run more timing with pump gas than I can with pump gas and methanol, with no knock at all.

Oh yea were are currenlty at JSM doing a build on a truck stock block and crank,422 cam, good rods & pistons & Stock vortec's. Call it an economy build. They are out there!

 

[blk00z28]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

When it comes to making power, there's no question the cylinder heads are one of the absolute largest factors in performance (especially when you look at N/A motors where boost is not a factor to skew results.) Allowing Vortec heads in a stock motor category seems absurd to me. There should be a class for guys like me and Dig and Mad Mike and all the guys with BONE stock motors trying to run as fast as possible. (I beleive this class is currently called Super Stock). When I think of competitive times in SyTy land, the "fastest stock motor" times are obvious currently heated competition which should be represented at the Nationals. Phil Long obviously set the bar with his 11.10 run but I think everyone is aware of the people next-fastest.

Although I would really really love to agree. Because I would fit right in that class with you guys. Because I'm bone stock motor. It would limit the trucks running in one class like Six-is-Enough said. Its hard to find a class for everyone without having alot of people complain because they are going to get waxed by some fast trucks. I mean I'm worried about my stock suspension when I go to race next year. I know I will be at a disadvantage because of it.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Whoa, hold on guys. I am quite confused.

Six is Enough - your comment on the Vortec heads on a stock bottom end reads like it's disagreeing with what I said, but it actually confirms what I really said - that nobody puts Vortec heads on a stock bottom end. (You mentioned right in your post you're going to have good pistons and rods, plus a Comp 422 camshaft). Is it possible you misinterpreted what I wrote? Also you mentioned the people running camshafts and how nobody's exploited the performance gain yet. If that is true, should we allow the loop hole open until someone does exploit it?

blk00z28, I couldnt really get a feel for what you are saying. I suggested the same amount of classes as we currently have and clarified what I felt were the most significant differences (Stock chip, Stock Turbo, Stock Motor, and Stock Block/Crank.) Also, why do you feel your stock suspension is going to put you at a disadvantage? Who do you know who has installed an aftermarket suspension and significantly reduced their ET compared to comparable trucks on stock suspension?

 

[Six-is-Enough]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

My truck is staying stock motored for quite a while if everything goes to plan. I mention that a truck (daron's) is getting a new motor and that the vortec's were not going to be ported & polished, with oversized valves. Sorry I was not clear. Also there is a Ty localy that has stock short block with Vortecs (unported and 412 cam. Mike Hardman's. I beleive he goes by FrcdFed, he does not post much anymore.

Let me clearify my point. If you allow anything more than stock untouched heads(ie L35's) then vortec's should be allowed. Not many people are going to put L35 on a motor as a upgrade today. The Vortecs are to easy, to cheap, and better than L35's. So someone is not going to use L35's unless they already have them. So if you go vortec's under 05 rules you fall in to modifed which had a low 10 sec truck. Also there are other ,modifed legal, trucks 9 sec capable out there that just haven't shown up for the nats. Not a whole lot of people want a 9 sec, turbo 400, Roll caged, parachuted, need a competion license to drive, firesuit wearing truck to drive around. That is a big leap from 11 sec capable trucks in SS!

The more trucks that start showing up the more additonal classes make sense. Until then comprimises have to be made. My post is just a suggestion. PJ will make the final call and he seems to be comfortable with the existing classes and rules. So we will wait and see.

Stock and Stock Turbo will always have the most participants. I was just trying to get more competion in the upper classes by condensing them and also allowing more people to be competive.(everyone in modifed except denny raab). If people feel like they have a shot they will be more likely to race.