Racing @ "06" Nats

[blk00z28]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

blk00z28, I couldnt really get a feel for what you are saying. I suggested the same amount of classes as we currently have and clarified what I felt were the most significant differences (Stock chip, Stock Turbo, Stock Motor, and Stock Block/Crank.) Also, why do you feel your stock suspension is going to put you at a disadvantage? Who do you know who has installed an aftermarket suspension and significantly reduced their ET compared to comparable trucks on stock suspension?

Sorry, I musta read it wrong, I thought you were trying to add more classes, which would mean you'd have less trucks running in each class.

I do like the idea of a stock motor class though!

Well, say someone went with coil overs, fiberglass springs, cal-trac's and dr's. That would drop their 60's a hell of alot more then my stock sus and street tires. (Because I'm trying to get the best ET's with the stock stuff.) Which would mean I'd be playing catch up unless I'm making more power up top to catch them. I'd like to see the SS class at least limit the suspension a bit. If not, its not that big of a deal, because I'm not building my truck to only race at the nat's. But how many guys have stock suspension with only a few upgrades? I'd like to know that %.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

To reiterate my point - I feel that Vortec heads (ported or not) and a camshaft represent a HUGE, GIGANTIC increase in static air flow through the engine and to allow those trucks to compete with fully stock motors where none of the trucks actually have a cam (despite being allowed), represents an imbalance in the competition.

Tim, I have no suspension modifications whatsoever besides a 1.5" drop block in the rear and on $89 all season Sears tires I've ran 60' as good as 1.68' when I ran low 13s. My 60' are currently in the 1.71-1.75 range. Find some guys with modified suspensions on similar all season tires, and ask what their average 60's are, and compare.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

To reiterate my point - I feel that Vortec heads (ported or not) and a camshaft represent a HUGE, GIGANTIC increase in static air flow through the engine and to allow those trucks to compete with fully stock motors where none of the trucks actually have a cam (despite being allowed), represents an imbalance in the competition.

The stock short block lower end is one of the limiting factors with aftermarket cam & maybe even with Vortec heads. If you put in a cam, to take full advantage you need to rev the motor higher, which it will blow the lower end.

I did some reading up about people with vortecs and the stock shortblock and 2 people quickly blow their motors. I maybe wrong about this though as Wes is running a 412 cam and Vortecs, but he is using a factory shift points.

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25815

 

[JKsSyclone]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Tim, Im with Tooky on the suspension modifications, Christina (my wife) cut a 1.68 60' on Potenza's in our bone stock Ty at the Nats this year. Itll cut 1.7's all day long.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Well, say someone went with coil overs, fiberglass springs, cal-trac's and dr's. That would drop their 60's a hell of alot more then my stock sus and street tires.

The best 60' time on this board have been with suspension limiters, caltracs and sticky tires. The biggest advantage with Coilovers is the weight savings and the Coilovers can respond like suspension limiters.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

The stock short block lower end is one of the limiting factors with aftermarket cam & maybe even with Vortec heads. If you put in a cam, to take full advantage you need to rev the motor higher, which it will blow the lower end.

What percent of the time do you feel this is true? 100%?

I did some reading up about people with vortecs and the stock shortblock and 2 people quickly blow their motors.

Dave, I don't intend to start an off-topic dispute but I have to say something. This is exactly the type of thinking that keeps the SyTys in the "Dark Ages" compared to other vehicles. There have been countless myths in the past just like this, that were either completely unfounded or based on unscientific anecdotal evidence. For example, remember when everyone thought you needed a Bowtie block, Stroker crank motor to run 10s? What about all the people who said the stock TD06 isn't efficient past 18 PSI (or was it 14 PSI on the Mike V enzoco.com page?). I ran mine to 20-21 PSI and ran fast. I have seen Jeremy Duncan is running 24 PSI. Lots of people made up BS comments like "The stock crank won't hold past 24 PSI" etc. yet Phillip Long is running 10.20s on one with more boost and no worries. I am not saying he has "scientifically Proven" the reliability of a stock crank but he at least proved that it didn't fail immediately upon the first attempt which is how I interpret your statement "If you put in a cam, to take full advantage you need to rev the motor higher, which it will blow the lower end." Saying it will blow the lower end. is a very strong statement indeed.

My feelings are, if someone wants to try it, more power to them and I tip my hat to them for knowing the risk and taking it anyway to see how far it can really go (see my signature). Just because 2 people blew their bottom end doesn't mean revving the motor higher will cause certain bottom end failure. Same way that Just because a lot of people blew their Stock Block motors trying to run 10s years ago turned out to NOT prove that the stock block can't handle 10s (it actually can, as we found out). The reason this is relevant to the topic on discussion is because I wouldn't make Racing Rules based around this uncertain claim and wanted to suggest why I feel it's an uncertain claim to begin with.

PS: I hope this post doesn't read offensively as I mean what I say in a purely technical sense.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Dave, I don't intend to start an off-topic dispute but I have to say something.

No problem this is SyTy related and in productive manner. Maybe someone can split these post out this thread (I don't moderate this forum)

This is exactly the type of thinking that keeps the SyTys in the "Dark Ages" compared to other vehicles. There have been countless myths in the past just like this, that were either completely unfounded or based on unscientific anecdotal evidence.

Maybe I am just a little parnoid about how fragile our stock lower end is. I read through the mailing list archive, the camshafts swap on stock lower ends were a common failure. They figuire this out in the 90's. From years of reading, basically to keep it in one piece the rev need to be kept down. Tuning nowadays has improve drastically so maybe their is more of room to explore this further. I won't be taking the risk of trying to accomplish something that many failed before.

Turbo6 put N2O in his shortblock, and it didn't blow up. its one of the few success stories with N2O but he also watched his tune, probably something all the other N2O disaster stories didn't.

For example, remember when everyone thought you needed a Bowtie block, Stroker crank motor to run 10s? What about all the people who said the stock TD06 isn't efficient past 18 PSI (or was it 14 PSI on the Mike V enzoco.com page?). I ran mine to 20-21 PSI and ran fast. I have seen Jeremy Duncan is running 24 PSI.

Both of you are also running alky as well, so its cooling effect has negated that previous 18-20 psi threshhold. On the flip side when I really started to read this forum regularly, the common recommendation was you need an aftermarket computer to run 11's. My prior knowledge of chip burning, I knew that couldn't be true. I am willing to take calculated risks with my Truck.

My Vortec head/stock short block is very limited. My sample size is 3 failures, 1 success. (atleast two of the failure were motors around 100K) I made a post about it but I can't find it. I was turned off by this and abondoned that plan.

"If you put in a cam, to take full advantage you need to rev the motor higher, which it will blow the lower end." Saying it will blow the lower end. is a very strong statement indeed.

My feelings are, if someone wants to try it, more power to them and I tip my hat to them for knowing the risk and taking it anyway to see how far it can really go (see my signature).

I am someone who is willing to push their truck but in a way that I feel safe doing so. I would like to top your 12.26 stock turbo time, but it wasn't advisable to do that last year at the track when I had 14-15 degree of knock retard at 16psi.

 

[Tooky]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Dave, I agree with what you said. And you make a good point, in fact I remember GM stating the L35 200HP Vortec V6 motor had better rods to handle the 5500 Redline so it would seem they felt the LB4 rods weren't adequate for that kind of RPM.

Back to the Nationals rules discussion, I am hoping some others have opinions to contribute. Patrick?

PS: Dave, I wish you luck on surpassing my Stock turbo times. If you can do it, we can all learn something new. Also, it's nice being able to start a technical debate without anyone losing it. I don't think that was possible on the old Syty.net I'm used to!

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Back to the Nationals rules discussion

Looking over at the rules, I sort of like Jeremey's Idea. IMO most SyTy fall into one of those categories. As with everything not everyone will competitive. The faster category SyTy participation has been lacking anyways. My only thought is that if Vortecs are allow, that LB4 and L35 heads could be argued to allow porting with stock sized valves.

 

[heavy breather]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Being the guy mentioned earlier (Mike Hardman) with the 412 vortecs/stock short block combo, I agree with Jeremy. I had the l35s in the garage, but it wasn't worth the effort. The vortec mod was the only way to go....But my wallet wouldn't support the rest of the build to go along with it. That mod has become like the next level before an all out forged lower end. I have a street driven truck (when it runs) not a 10.02 track shredding beast with a roll cage and a case of anorexia.. I can't and don't want to compete with the trucks in the catagory that I currently fall into. Therefore I don't even consider trying....BTW update on the combo...holy pistons have led me to re-think my combo, however, I think the "Jeremy" rules would have made me more interested in class racing at the nats.

Brackets are just fine though, as long as I am there with a running truck.

 

[V895]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

I am thinking on coming down to the SyTy nats to see the trucks and get to meet some of the drivers but while down thier I would allso like to see how my truck does at the track (never been on one) and maby do a run aginst a Somoma GT to see comparison. I also would like to see the # the new engine is putting out at a dyno. Would thier be a problum with this? I will not be competing for any trophies or prizes. I know it's a 95 dime. Wish it was a Syclone.

 

[SonomaGTlover]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

I see that you're in MO.... we can meet up at Gateway just 5 min. from downtown StL sometime and I'll race you with my GT. If yo beat me then you can run y SY. I think it's $15 to make as many passes as you want. Non-drivers are $10. Last year test-n-tune was Tuesday nights, probably the same again this year. I'll have to check.

 

[V895]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

But I work second shift in Kirksville 3.5 hrs away I did some tuning today and got my stock internal 4.3 to get 86mph. 30' after the 1/8mile make that we have. At this point it shuts down on me due to the speedo being off for going from 3.08's to 3.73's and smaller tires. I have been working on a hack to bypass my speed limiter but so far no luck. I guess I am just going to have to break down and buy a recalabration kit from summit to fix it.

 

[SonomaGTlover]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

That's not too bad but how did you measure the mph 30' past the 1/8 mark and why?
Don't you just have an 1/8 time and MPH? How do you know 86mph if your speedo is that far off?

My GT runs mid 70's in the 1/8 right around 9.7. That puts it at a mid 15's for the 1/4 mile @ high 80's.
It's still got the stock 165,xxx mile engine/tranny/TC and 3.42's. I adapted Vortec heads and headers.

 

[V895]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

Freind that is a cop used his radar gun and were he was setting at was just at the 1/8 mile mark he even said it was around 30' after the 1/8 when he hear it shut down

 

[0966Sy]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

So... Is pure stock out of the question if i have JSM coilovers?

 

[Loeryder]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

So... Is pure stock out of the question if i have JSM coilovers?

You are correct.
No coilovers in pure stock.
It is an obvious weight savings advantage.

 

[0966Sy]

Re: Racing @ "06" Nats

You are correct.
No coilovers in pure stock.
It is an obvious weight savings advantage.

Ill reinstall the stock supention to race for Nats, WooHoo