Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

[Quickstop [UK]]

On a stock SyTy, you need to hammer the pan slightly to clear the Eagle rods.

Does this issue occur with the cast pan when using a 4x4 Vortec motor?

If so, how would you get around this - cast pans are presumably less malleable than the stamped steel pans no?

 

[SY-1193]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Just place the pan on with gasket and tighten the pan bolts, rotate the assembly, remove the pan and look for contact marks on the pan they will be side to side marks. I am guessing you will have to use a die grinder to clearance the pan since it is cast (if there is any contact). Make sure you don't go too deep on the clearancing. Clean the pan before reassembly...you don't want any shavings in the oil. Report back if there is contact of the rod/bolts to the pan as this is a fairly new combo.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Just place the pan on with gasket and tighten the pan bolts, rotate the assembly, remove the pan and look for contact marks on the pan they will be side to side marks. I am guessing you will have to use a die grinder to clearance the pan since it is cast (if there is any contact). Make sure you don't go too deep on the clearancing. Clean the pan before reassembly...you don't want any shavings in the oil. Report back if there is contact of the rod/bolts to the pan as this is a fairly new combo.

Sir, Yes, SIR!



Yeah - I hadn't seen anyone mention it so maybe I am the guinea pig for this.

Engine should be ready for assembly next week but I need to send the rotating assembly out for balancing as well so it will be a few weeks until the engine can actually go in the truck.

Here's a question - could I assemble the top end and put the pistons, crank and balance shaft in later on once the balancing has been done?

 

[SY-1193]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Usually to balance the rotating assembly they want rods, pistons, crank, flexplate for the weights when they set up the balance.
You will probably have to send all that to them for the balance.
Pistons with rings and rods attached go in from the top so you wouldn't be able to put the top end together on the block until they are in there.
I don't know but I would think putting in the balance shaft would require acess to the lifter valley also so no lower intake on there would help with assembly?? Not sure?

You could assemble the heads alone if you are doing that. I wouldn't put anything together until the crank/rotating assembly are able to be put in the block.
I am wondering myself how they do the balance with that extra balance shaft thrown into the mix? ...having never messed with a balance shaft motor.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

With the crank out and pan off, they could go in from below surely? Normally as you say they'd be done from above but I'd like to do as much as I can.

I guess it's no big deal if I wait a few more weeks.

 

[SY-1193]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

I know Dave (dgoodhue) has a similar setup maybe he has Eagle Rods and would know about the clearance?

 

[DaveP]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

I am wondering myself how they do the balance with that extra balance shaft thrown into the mix? .

This is a VERY rough, and simplified explanation of the "why" the difference in balancing strategies for the two different 4.3 engines.

Consider that in a running engine, half of the reciprocating assembly (pistons and rods) is going up, the other half is going down, at any given point in one crankshaft revolution.

A non balance shaft engine is balanced using 50% of the reciprocating mass as "bob-weight". During balancing operations, the bob-weights are attached to the crank throws, the crank is then spun, and weight removed or added to the counterweights to make the rotating assembly (crank, flywheel, and harmonic balancer) perfectly zero-balanced. Like a tire-wheel assembly.

A balance shaft 4.3 V6 is balanced using 46% of the reciprocating mass as bob-weight.

A 90º V6 engine is inherently imbalanced, because the reciprocating parts do not move at the same opposite relative speeds at all times as they do in a V8. This sets up vibrations. The 46% crank balance is intended to create 'smoothness' in the side-to-side plane, which is felt by the driver, but it results in increased up-down vibration which is out of the range of being able to be isolated with motor mounts. The balance shaft off-sets this up-down imbalance.

Hope this makes sense. I've worked with three machine shops with 4.3's. None of them were aware of the different bob-weight used for the balance shaft engine. Beware. Knowledge is beneficial to achieving a good result.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Dave, that's useful info - thanks.

As for assembling the top, I just want to put the heads and the exhaust manifolds on. I'm tripping overall this stuff at the moment. It probably doesn't save me much in terms of effort and you're right, I'd have to leave the lower off to access the balance weight and make sure that's all assembled correctly.

I messaged Dave Goodhue so will post any useful info in here. Otherwise, I'll have my answer this weekend.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

I messaged Dave Goodhue so will post any useful info in here. Otherwise, I'll have my answer this weekend.

Sorry, I don't have any info on Vortec cast pan with eagle rods. My lower end is stock. I started looking for that info years ago, but I did not find any answers.

You coukd try search on the s-series forums as many of them seem to use the eagle rods.

I am curious opcorn2:

 

[jeepruby04]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

The balance shaft isn't needed to balance the rotating assembly, it is designed to remove the tourque rotation of the engine.

 

[midnightbluS10]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

The balance shaft isn't needed to balance the rotating assembly, it is designed to remove the tourque rotation of the engine.

I concur. It has nothing to do with the balance of the rotating assembly. It's only there to counter vibrations and things.

A shaft designed so that, as it rotates, it vibrates in a way that reduces or cancels some of the vibration produced by an engine. Not essential to an engine's operation, balance shafts are nonetheless becoming increasingly common as a means of engine refinement.

People have removed them in the past with no ill-effects.

 

[DaveP]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

I concur. It has nothing to do with the balance of the rotating assembly.

^^ This statement is WRONG!

The balance shaft does influence how the rotating and reciprocating assembly is balanced. I'll leave it to you geniuses to figure out the difference.

 

[Davemc1963]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Mark, Who are you getting to do the balancing/machining?
When I was going to do the vette, I was thinking of using these guys:-
http://www.performanceunlimited.co.uk/
Its a bit out of your way though and I'm sure there are others in your neck of the woods.

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Btw what were the results of eagle rods with the later cast Vortec oil pan.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Unfortunately I have had a few snags. The cam bearings were really tight so I didn't get the finished block until recently. I also used L2256F pistons for the 9.5 Vortec original compression. It turns out they don't clear the crank as the wrist pin boss is 8mm wider than the stock GM piece.

I guess I could torque it all up and check but I've had other things to do on the truck. I may know on Sunday otherwise late May or August.

I need to grind the crank to clear the piston but then it needs balancing. Again. Schoolboy mistake on my part.

Dave McMahon - I ended up using Basset Down Balancing for the work. The guy is pretty cool and I thought he was reasonable. £200 all in for a crank and 6 pistons.

I guess I'm a guinea pig!

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Unfortunately I have had a few snags. The cam bearings were really tight so I didn't get the finished block until recently. I also used L2256F pistons for the 9.5 Vortec original compression. It turns out they don't clear the crank as the wrist pin boss is 8mm wider than the stock GM piece.

I guess I could torque it all up and check but I've had other things to do on the truck. I may know on Sunday otherwise late May or August.

I need to grind the crank to clear the piston but then it needs balancing. Again. Schoolboy mistake on my part.

Dave McMahon - I ended up using Basset Down Balancing for the work. The guy is pretty cool and I thought he was reasonable. £200 all in for a crank and 6 pistons.

I guess I'm a guinea pig!

OK. I was just curious incase I end up rebuilt mine.

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

I'll update as soon as I know. I'm amazed there aren't others that went this route. Maybe I didn't look hard enough. Like you suggested, I guess the S10 guys have the same limited options as us and Eagles seem standard for v6 so I :dunno:

 

[Quickstop [UK]]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Just to update the thread, the Eagle rods clear the pan. I ground the crank to clear the wrist pin boss on #1 cylinder and everything else was fine. I had it rebalanced and have kept the balance shaft. There are kits to delete them but it is necessary to reduce vibration from the motor. I'll be interested to feel how it runs.

Solid mounts, balanced motor with balance shaft.

 

[TYTILIDIE]

Re: Vortec 4x4 pan and Eagle rods

Just to update the thread, the Eagle rods clear the pan. I ground the crank to clear the wrist pin boss on #1 cylinder and everything else was fine. I had it rebalanced and have kept the balance shaft. There are kits to delete them but it is necessary to reduce vibration from the motor. I'll be interested to feel how it runs.

Solid mounts, balanced motor with balance shaft.

Nice leg work Mark, I am getting ready to battle the stock pan on a Bowtie block issues. I may jut snag me an aluminum (excuse me...AULUMINIUM) pan from he bone yard and use it instead, seems to me installing a dipstick tube may be easier on an aluminum pan?

Eh, lets just face it, it just looks better:lol: