Ty Zero tow rating / I call BS = noob question

[GregS]

I'm in the market for a Sy/Ty. It's main usage is two-fold. First off, I like sport trucks, particularly GM/Chevy models, and have owned a few S-10s. Should be fun owning one with some balls!

The second use is to tow my sportbikes to the track. The Sy's 1,000lb tow rating is suitable for an open trailer with a bike or two (bike=400lb), or one bike in the bed. However, I'd rather own the Ty for weather related reasons. While I don't mind riding on the track in the rain, I don't want all my cargo riding in the rain on the way to the track. Having the occasional 2nd and 3rd passenger is also a nice feature. For this, the Ty suits me better.

So this zero pound tow rating seems rather silly to me. I learned there is an air assisted rear shock setup on the Sy, are they on the Ty too? If that's part of the towing issue, they'll just get unplugged and set at a static air pressure. Easy. Am I wrong there?

I read "engine and transmission failure if used to tow" from one info site. From that cryptic phrase a few transmission related things come to mind. Is there something specific to the Ty trans setup that prevents it from towing the 1,000lb allowed with the Sy? Must be chassis related then, right? But what is it? Too much weight over the rear wheels? I doubt that. Leaf springs too soft? Possibly, but that can be changed without comprimising anything other than the handling characteristics.

Now this engine related failure looks a bit tricky. Since turbocharged engines are load sensitive, I'd wager the notion that adding a 2,000lb trailer to the equation of boost control was off the charts, the wastegate solenoid duty cycle charts. This I would wholy believe. Would the use of the freeware tuning software, seen around these forums, allow enough manipulation of the wastegate duty cycle to have some towing capacity? If not boost control related, where else should I look for answers to this seemingly (to me, at least) silly problem???

I appreciate any guidance, help, and noob jokes you can offer.

 

[Captain Morgan]

not sure where you're getting all this information, but you're a little off...

Typhoon, Syclone and Sonoma GT are designed to be high performance vehicles. Cargo and towing are therefore restricted. Typhoon has a cargo rating of 900 lbs. Syclones's cargo box is rated for 500 lbs. Sonoma GT has a 6000-lbs. towing capacity* and a 964 lbs. cargo box rating.

*When properly equipped, maximum trailer weight includes trailer, passengers, cargo and equipment.

Neither the Syclone or Typhoon are rated to tow anything and the Typhoon actually has the higher cargo rating.

The air shocks are NOT in the Syclone, but are in the Typhoon actually. You cannot just unplug them and set them to a static pressure, if anything they would be better off left functioning as normal. Most owners remove them anyway cause the create problems when they are lowered and after 12 or 13 years they usually dont work or leak anyway.

Again, youre a little off on your information, it has nothing to do with the chassis or weight distribution or leaf springs. The fact of the matter is that the turbocharged 4.3L creates a lot of torque and the transmission was designed for crisp performance shifting, not towing. When you try and tow excessive amounts, the combination creates more heat in the transmission, is harder on parts in general, thus leaving a higher chance for transmission failure.

I personally think the transmission would fail long before the engine would, so the engine really isnt an issue.

There are a few people who use their SyTys to tow light loads, short distances at low speeds, but past that, I think youre just asking for trouble.

 

[GregS]

I found that misguided tow rating on autotrader.com while comparing the Sy to the Ty. Here we go, some better info from syty.org ....

Taken directly from the GM Service Bulliten on Towing:

SYCLONE:
-------
The Syclone has been approved for a maximum gross combination weight rating of 4800 pounds (2179 kg) with a maximum trailer towing weight of 1100 pounds (500 kg) and maximum cargo weight of 250 pounds (114 kg). When towing a trailer with passengers and cargo, the combined weight cannot exceed the 4800 pounds maximum gross combination weight rating. A hitch (#24559) has been developed by Draw-Tite for the 1991 and 1992 Syclone. When towing with the Syclone, use this hitch or an equivalent class rated hitch.
NOTICE: Exceeding the maximum gross combination weight rating of 4800 pounds and/or the maximum trailer towing weight of 1100 pounds will cause serious engine and/or transmission damage.

TYPHOON:
-------
THE TYPHOON IS NEITHER DESIGNED NOR INTENDED TO TOW A TRAILER. Trailering with the Typhoon will cause serious engine and/or transmission damage.

Since these transmissions are used in other tow worthy GM trucks and vans, it seems unlikely they are the direct reason these trucks "cannot" tow. Is it possibly the shift characteristcs, and can some reworking allow towing? I'm all for getting dirty to make the the truck more usable for me. Again, why the difference in tow rating between the Sy and Ty? Is it because the Ty weighs a bit more?

On the topic of the rear air shocks, their description sounds rather basic to me. It would seem logical the shocks can be re-used to level the truck with loads in the bed or a trailers tongue weight hanging onto it. The compressor may not be up to the task of supplying the necessary pressure, but that's what gas station air pumps are for. I would just ditch the pump. From syty.org FAQ.......

What is that noise coming from the back of my Typhoon? It sounds like a pump or motor running?

The Electronic Level Control (ELC) keeps the rear of the vehicle at a constant height. If weight is added to the vehicle, the height sensor turns on the compressor. Air is pumped into the shock absorbers until the vehicle is level. An actuator arm is connected between the rear axle tie rod and the height sensor which is mounted to the rear crossmember. It turns as the vehicle height changes. A solid state unit detects this motion and operates switches to control the air flow into and out of the shock absorbers.
Sometimes, the the height sensor will fail and the compressor will run without seeing a height change. If this occurs, simply pull the fuse under the dash or disconnect the weather pack connecter at the pump. Almost all owners have their pump disconnected. Disconnecting the pump is necessary if you decide to lower your Typhoon. The sensor will try to compensate for height once you finish lowering the truck.

Thanks for the clarification and input.

 

[TYRODD]

IMO, it would be like pulling a boat with a Corvette, which sounds retarded to me, although Im sure it has been done :roll: . These trannies are made for high performance applications, and even under stock power ratings, things let go inside them. These trannies are NOT found in other trucks and vans, in fact many of the internal components are specific to our trucks.
I doubt that the ELC on the Typhoons would affect anything when towing, they dont do much anyways (mine is still functional and I have never noticed anything ) I would think that the AWD would cause more of a problem.

 

[Falco]

AFAIR the Syclone can officialy tow 500lbs. There were even a GM advertisment on this back in the day...

Later,

 

[JSM]

Do I think you can do it YES.

As Morgan explained the tranny is the weakest link. Add the biggest external cooler you can.

Additional stay out of boost while towing.

If you change tranny to act more like a common "tow vehicle", it will probably fail quickly. We have enough trouble with transmissions already.

Like I said, with the loads you are talking, if you are careful while towing it can be down, and with some success. Just don't try to show the corvette next to you, you can still beat him to the next light pulling a trailer.

 

[Ian Turgeon]

we've all broken a trans or two, towing wont make the trans live any longer...

the sy wont CARRY a whole lot because of its leaf springs, they just dont support that much weight (trade off for performance)

Ty has more capacity cause its made to carry more people. Im pretty sure the air adjust comes into play here.

With that said I have seen ty's towing fairly large boats. Just take it easy, and dont be surprised if your hanging out with your tranny guy more often.

And, no.. I personally dont advicate it, You'll never see me towing anything.

 

[myclone]

Other than some shift programming pieces and a couple of hard parts the syty trans is basically the same as any other 700 that you find in other GM vehicles.

However, the problem is the shift firmness coupled with the torque available under boost and the AWD. The stock trans will survive a decent amount of time because it only has to absorb(sp?) the hard shifts by accellerating the weight of the truck but add extra weight and the life span of the trans is dramatically shortened due to the hard shifts. Its even worse if the driver is stupid enough to get into boost while towing or stay in boost pulling a long grade while towiing as trans life would be measured in minutes not miles due to heat.

As everyone else has said.. You can tow with a syty but two things will happen. Either you will become VERY familiar with how to rebuild a 700R4 or your mechanic will become very familiar with you. Period.

That being said, if you want to tow a couple of dirt bikes on a SMALL snowmobile type trailer then you will possibly be ok for a decent amount of time but the key to the trans living is to drive like you are facing instant death the second the boost gauge passes 0 and starts registering boost and you MUST install an additional trans cooler (the bigger the better). Dont do either one of those and youll need those dirt bikes so you wont have to walk home.

 

[dgoodhue]

GM at one time rated the SY for 1000 # towing, they even had an ad that showing it towing a boat with a captian of "WHO SAYS A SYCLONE CAN'T TOW". They did change the rating to 0 during its short production.

I think you can tow with a syclone, but I would add a deep pan, tanny cooler, and trans temp gauge. I would also keep it out of boost for sustain periods.

 

[GregS]

Sounds like heat and shift firmness are the two main culprits here. Since both of those can be addressed, I'm feeling optomistic about this project.

Thanks for the advise guys (and gals?)!

 

[Captain Morgan]

Sounds like heat and shift firmness are the two main culprits here. Since both of those can be addressed, I'm feeling optomistic about this project.

Thanks for the advise guys (and gals?)!

so why dont you just go buy a Blazer or a Jimmy? Youre taking the whole preformance thing right out of the truck, just so you can tow shit? Go buy a nice Blazer, toss in an LT1 or LS1 and call it a day. You will be able to tow more most likely since the power will be higher will less torque, it will be cheaper and less headaches AND you'll be able to run regular gas. Even if you went and bought a truck and an LS1 and a whole set of cladding, I be it would still be cheaper than a Typhoon.

 

[nick041881]

i think it would be alright to tow an open trailer with a bike. Wes a local guy here has towed a big ass boat with a ty and on several occasions has posted the pictures of it. the odds are that your tranny is going to blow up no matter what you do, tow or not.

 

[GregS]

If I was buying a truck ONLY to tow with, I'd buy something more purposeful. However, I'm looking for a dual purpose truck, one that can haul ass one weekend and haul my bikes the next weekend. Doesn't sound like too much trouble. After all, I'm only talking about 1-2,000lbs here.

So here's what I've gathered so far:
1) Everyone is on their second tranny, at least. (from the Subaru community, I $ know $ exactly $ how $ you $ feel!)
2) Heat is bad, buy a large trans fluid cooler, get a temp gauge, lay off the boost while towing -OR- retrofit a stronger trans (400 w/ taller fr.&rr. ratios)
3) Rear leafs are not up to the task, replace with units of higher load capacity, use air-bags, etc.

I am overlooking something, somewhere. That's a statistical fact. Otherwise, this seems totally feasible. Heck, if my little Subaru with the glass tranny can tow 2,000lbs cross country, I'm sure these trucks can do the same with a little extra effort.

Again, thanks for the advise, for and against.

 

[THEMADTYPH00N]

Sounds like heat and shift firmness are the two main culprits here. Since both of those can be addressed, I'm feeling optomistic about this project.

Taking shift firmness out of the trans isn't going to help you. Maybe when towing but as soon as you do a few WOT blast I bet it doesn't live long.

Why not just get a Lightning. It's way better suited to what you looking for.

 

[just a 6]

Heck, if my little Subaru with the glass tranny can tow 2,000lbs cross country, I'm sure these trucks can do the same with a little extra effort.
Again, thanks for the advise, for and against.

Dos your Subaru greates 4-500Lbs of torque, the torque/heat from our trucks is the transmission killer.

Please don't compare to a Subaru or a regular fullsize tranny, it's not the same and will never be.

The only thing i would tow behind my Sy is a Jet-Ski and going with 0 boost.

Good luck,

 

[GM TURBO]

My understanding is that the AWD Astro van was also rated with a minimal towing capacity.

Anyways - I say screw it. It's your truck. We can't talk you out of not towing. Rebuild a trans or 3 and call it even.

It has been done. It will continue to be done. The transmissions in these are short lived. You're not going to hurt it much more than doing a 10# launch. Get a trans cooler and stay outta boost. Or just drive the bike to where you're going

 

[sy538]

get a Lightning.

 

[GregS]

Dos your Subaru greates 4-500Lbs of torque, the torque/heat from our trucks is the transmission killer.

It is hard to determine attitude over the internet, so I will not say anything negative to this. Subaru's have tranny failures at just 200hp, they don't need any mods to break their boxes. So yes, heat and torque are the enemy of any trans. Thanks for solidifying the heat as a major concern. For the record, I wont say how much power my Scoob makes. :wink:

Please don't compare to a Subaru or a regular fullsize tranny, it's not the same and will never be.

These trannies are in many other GM models. The 65/35 transfer case, on the other hand, I have not seen before, although I wasn't necessarily looking for it. As for the Subaru trans, the comparison is fair. It's an AWD tranny, has the shafts arranged just like any other RWD trans, and it's too weak for it's application. Besides, the car itself is way less capable of towing when compared to a Jimmy/S10 chassis. I did not mean to offend you with that comparison. It was simply part of my experience with towing over the rated capacity of a given vehicle.

Trying to tow at zero boost is going to be impossible, especially if a hill or two is in the way. Even if swapping to a 400 is the logical necessity, this project still seems feasible for my budget and needs.

A Lightning? Sorry, can't stoop that low this early in life! Besides, my good friend has one and he needs some competition.

Thanks for the input.

 

[sy538]

These trannies are in many other GM models. The 65/35 transfer case, on the other hand, I have not seen before,

The 700R4/4L60 is a very common transmission from GM and while the syty tranny is very similar to all of them its not exactly the same as any of them. The transfer case is straight out of a astro/bravada afaik.

 

[GregS]

For my own edification, did the Astro/Bravada have the torque split more towards the rear, or were they 50/50?

What breaks the transmission? In other words, what part fails fist?

In my experience, gear teeth break off because they are dimensionally too small to support the load placed upon them. I have also seen newer automatic transmissions smoke individual gear clutch packs because they were not able to transmit higher than stock torque loads, slippage occured, heat cooked the clutch packs, the gear in question no longer transmits engine torque to the output shaft (or shafts).

Are those failure modes occuring in syty transmissions? Are you breaking transfer cases?