Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

turbodig said:
Couple of questions about your knock....

Did you use the Comp 33xx series lobes?
Does it happen around 1200-1900 RPM?

Curious...
Nope, I wanted the XFI lobes, the 33xx are the Xtreme Energy Lobes. The XFI (30xx) lobes also are "designed" for the beehive springs, whatever that means..

It does seem mostly around that RPM. I searched and found a trick Michael Hood mentioned, bumping the knock retard minimum RPM up from 1800 to 2800. So far it's working really well but I just smoked a brake pad down to the rotor and while I got that all apart, I'm gonna reach in by the knock sensor and insulate anything else I can find. Back in 2001-2004 I was plagued by terrible false knock and I'm 99% convinced it ultimately was resolved when I insulated the tranny line near the bellhousing/knock sensor with a rubber bike tube (when I R&R'ed the trans the 1st time).
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

GreenTyGuy said:
Tooky - is there any reason you decided to go with the Victor Gaskets instead of the Cometics?
Yes I have both sets, it was a tossup but ultimately I decided to go Victor because the stock ones worked so well for me (up to 30+ PSI boost on a spike and 26 PSI max sustained), and because I was afraid I couldn't hand-scrape the deck to meet the Cometic's strict 50RA smoothness standard. I asked everyone I could find (local racers, machinists, etc.) about Cometics and pretty much everyone could recall a scenario where they leaked water on someone's car. So I'll save the Cometics for when I can deck the block.

Although, Wes with the stock bottom end Typhoon (www.fivaxis.com/typhoon/) used Cometics on a stock block and had no problems.

As far as retorquing the Victors, what is the source of this information? The service manual doesn't mention a retorque, and I also doubt they were retorqued from the factory, yet mine held well. That being said, if I have to pull the exh. manifolds, I'll check the torque anyways and retorque if any of the "easy" ones turn out loose.
 
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Tooky

Serious about performance
High Boost Testing!!

High Boost Testing!!

High Boost Testing!!! :rock: :syty:

I can definitely testify to the fact that these heads and cam do allow you to run more boost on pump gas........but just a little, maybe 2-3 PSI more. I think I was able to run ~18 PSI with areas of 0.0 knock now on pure 93 octane. I CERTAINLY am not able to run any significant amount more timing than I could with my stock heads. And neither could the only other vortec-headed truck I tuned personally..... :roll: Do I believe vortecs "greatly reduce detonation"? Not really. Not in the sense that, if your truck was knocking on stock heads, it ain't gonna be magically fixed with vortecs. I just haven't seen the evidence. :2cents:

After getting the WOT AFR close to flat around 11.0-11.4 I decided to step it up and turn on the (SMC dual nozzle) alcohol injection system and start leaning out the top end and adding boost.

Man, this thing is freakin' awesome!! The PT51 turbo hits so hard now, it will squeal the tires from a 10-15mph roll!! And these tires (stock rims) got me a best 1.630 60' so it's not like they are some tight sidewall 18" that turn over easy, either! When you floor it now, you gotta have both hands tight on the wheel and keep it straight because the front (and rear) tires want to make it skate all over. I think this is "the Syclone dance" the foreign SyTy owners talk about. :D

Gave a handful of people rides already, if you give it even 3 PSI on a launch, it will burn the tires all the way through 1st and into 2nd (never did that before!) The boost just hits so hard, I think people who seriously over-turbo their engines are making a huge mistake, it's so much more FUN when you can get full boost at half throttle!

On the flip side, I might be starting to feel the drawback of the small turbo. :oops: I get 21 PSI on the spoolup spike, but by 5400 RPM it's down to 16.0 PSI!! My boost control used to be within 1-2 PSI, now it's just garbage. I ported the wastegate somewhat conservatively after TurboTony warned me that too much porting can cause the wastegate to open on it's own. That's kind of how the boost is responding, at high RPM it's opening too much. Or maybe the turbo is just out of flow? My DM dynos hit a new all time high of ~585 HP (720 LB-FT torque!), right what the PT51 is rated at. Is boost dropping at high RPM a sign of a too-small turbo? I tried adjusting the wastegate rod tighter but it doesn't seem to be helping. Even though the boost is fluctuating +/- 5 PSI, my AFRs are tuned flat to 10.9-11.4.

I ran through a gallon of methanol already. This project feels like such a success at this point, that I broke out the $50/750mL single malt "Cask Strength" scotch :silly: :drinking:
I was giving a friend a ride today and on a launch it hazed the tires and then BOOM! The engine went silent and I thought that was all she wrote. My heart stopped and I looked at the tach and I thought it was dead. Then I realized it was still at 900 RPM, and I just blew an intercooler hose off my (inadequate) 2nd alky nozzle mount. I fixed it but I realized that with 250 miles on this build, I already had enough fun to make it worth it if it lets go tomorrow. :lol:

Timeslips Soon.....?
I also wore an LS1 brake pad down to nothing so I'm doing a brake job today (are ceramic pads good for street/strip?), and the dragstrip is open on Tuesday for the last weekday of the year... I'm gonna try and make it so I can finally get a timeslip faster than the 11.79 I ran in ..................2003!! :? :dunno:
 

MrNurse

i'm no homo
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

this is on a stock bottom end right? also can you shoot me some part numbers for the stuff you put into your heads?
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Tooky said:
As far as retorquing the Victors, what is the source of this information? The service manual doesn't mention a retorque, and I also doubt they were retorqued from the factory, yet mine held well. That being said, if I have to pull the exh. manifolds, I'll check the torque anyways and retorque if any of the "easy" ones turn out loose.

I am just going by what I read, this thread is basically why I though the stock head gaskets need to be retorqued.

http://www.syty.net/forums/showthread.php?t=44649&page=2&pp=15&highlight=
 

dgoodhue

BuSTeD 4.3
Re: High Boost Testing!!

Re: High Boost Testing!!

Tooky said:
On the flip side, I might be starting to feel the drawback of the small turbo. :oops: I get 21 PSI on the spoolup spike, but by 5400 RPM it's down to 16.0 PSI!! My boost control used to be within 1-2 PSI, now it's just garbage. I ported the wastegate somewhat conservatively after TurboTony warned me that too much porting can cause the wastegate to open on it's own. That's kind of how the boost is responding, at high RPM it's opening too much. Or maybe the turbo is just out of flow? Is boost dropping at high RPM a sign of a too-small turbo? I tried adjusting the wastegate rod tighter but it doesn't seem to be helping.

I have heard that too small of a turbo will lose boost at higher RPM's, but I don't know if its because too high of back pressure and the wastegatge opening or if the compressor side wouldn't keep. I wonder if the PTE high boost actuator would help.

My DM dynos hit a new all time high of ~585 HP (720 LB-FT torque!), right what the PT51 is rated at. Even though the boost is fluctuating +/- 5 PSI, my AFRs are tuned flat to 10.9-11.4

What did your stock block/PTE51 do on the DM dyno?
 

turbodig

Active member
Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

Tooky said:
Nope, I wanted the XFI lobes, the 33xx are the Xtreme Energy Lobes. The XFI (30xx) lobes also are "designed" for the beehive springs, whatever that means..

It does seem mostly around that RPM. I searched and found a trick Michael Hood mentioned, bumping the knock retard minimum RPM up from 1800 to 2800. So far it's working really well but I just smoked a brake pad down to the rotor and while I got that all apart, I'm gonna reach in by the knock sensor and insulate anything else I can find. Back in 2001-2004 I was plagued by terrible false knock and I'm 99% convinced it ultimately was resolved when I insulated the tranny line near the bellhousing/knock sensor with a rubber bike tube (when I R&R'ed the trans the 1st time).

I've seen similar things here with a custom cam. I suspect there's a valvetrain harmonic that hits the "sweet spot" in the knock filter's frequency profile.

Trying some different ESC boards is on my "to do" list. My hope is that I can find a later-model ESC that isolated the noise a bit better. Might also try an external knock module.

I don't really like taking ESC out of play at highway speed. Engines can knock at cruise, and I'd hate to pound a bearing to death because of it.

One quickie thing you can try - put a brass pipe thread union between the block and the sensor... this "softens" the overall signal.

Interesting what you mentioned about the boost falling off... I get the exact same behavior, only with a stock turbo. I've significantly beefed up the WG spring, and it helped, but it didn't get rid of it. I don't think it's a WG control problem... I think you could wire it shut, and it'd still fall off.

I'm not entirely sure why... I'm still investigating a few things.
 

sytyguy

Moderated User
Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

Re: 1st Testing with BOOST!

turbodig said:
I don't really like taking ESC out of play at highway speed. Engines can knock at cruise, and I'd hate to pound a bearing to death because of it.

I agree. I use that method only to diagnose false knock and once diagnosed, I usually put that setting back lower.

Hood
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

MrNurse said:
this is on a stock bottom end right? also can you shoot me some part numbers for the stuff you put into your heads?
Yup, stock rods and everything. :D

I listed almost all the part numbers throughout this thread but I'll try to come up with a parts list/total cost soon...


Oh yeah, I need to correct a part number mistake, I said I used the Comp #774 retainer, but I actually used the Comp #787-12 retainer. I updated my post and the accompanying photo diagram. Sorry about that! :oops:
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: High Boost Testing!!

Re: High Boost Testing!!

dgoodhue said:
What did your stock block/PTE51 do on the DM dyno?
~530 HP, 650 LB-FT. Generally whenever it felt the "fastest", the DM dyno numbers would be at least 500HP. Whenever they would fall below 500HP, I knew I was losing power somewhere, compared to its best tune.
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
More Power = Broke The Trans!

More Power = Broke The Trans!

Last Thursday (11/01/07), I made some changes to the timing after noticing it was always knocking on the spoolup / peak torque. I took a little timing out there and added some above 4800 RPM and boy it was just what the truck wanted!! It reduced avg ~7* of knock on spoolup, to flatline 0* knock for 3 WOT passes in a row. :) I video-recorded the tach and speedometer on those 3 WOT runs but they came out really dark (nighttime), does anyone have a way to "brighten" an MPG video?

I take the truck out of town for the first time and I'm feeling nervous. I get to the big city cruise strip and pick up my friend who has a 9.3 @ 150 '83 Mustang he drives on the street. The first time I stood on it, the 700-R4 blew 2nd and 4th gear! :oops: :roll: Immediately I concluded that the 2-4 band anchor pin sheared off, as it did this 2 years ago when I was first calibrating the transmission. I was able to drive it home in 3rd gear at 58 MPH (2900 RPM), traffic on the 65 MPH freeway was backing up and driving around me. Any faster and it really felt like the engine was screaming. I'll never do a TH400 or TH350, that's for sure... :roll: :tdown:

I ordered a billet 300M anchor pin to solve the problem and I hope to fix it this week. Hopefully I can repair it from under the valve body instead of pulling the whole transmission!!

Anyways, with those timing changes it sure felt fast!! :D (before the trans let loose). Even though it was still fluctuating between 17-21 PSI, DM Dyno gave me a new all time high: 623 HP! :D

vortec_dmdyno_623hp_broke2-4anchor.png



ABS Delete, Ceramic Brake Pads

I also did an ABS Delete, and a pad/rotor job on my CBR LS1 front brakes. I went with the $42 AutoZone "Duralast Gold" ceramic brake pads, and boy are these sweet! They have a powdercoated backing plate (to prevent rust) and a nice stainless steel "vibration absorbing" shim that shows through the caliper (and wheel) so it looks real nice. They also feel great! The pedal seems a little more firm but I think that's typical of any fresh brake pads.

My girlfriend shot kind of a cool picture (IMO) when I was grinding off the steering stops on the stock control arms (which cause the CBR LS1 brake kit to produce a terribly large turning radius compared to stock):

josh_night_working_absdelete.jpg



There's one more "Street Drags" this Saturday, if I can get the trans fixed, I'll take it to the track and get a timeslip before anything else lets loose!! (hopefully not my stock front propshaft :lol: )
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Vortec Head Flow

I came across this eBay auction for vortec heads, which states:

THEY HAVE A REAL PERFORMANCE VALVE JOB WITH BACK CUT VALVES, SHORT SIDE RADIUSES BLENDED AND WERE FLOW TESTED ON OUR SUPERFLOW SF600. THEY FLOW 225 CFM AT .450" ON THE INTAKE AND 165 CFM AT .450" ON THE EXHAUST.

I thought that was interesting they are the same casting as mine (#113), mine also had the short side radiuses blended, and were tested on a Superflow SF600, except this pair had the much-ballyhooed "performance valve job" and the numbers apparently are no better than mine or any other pair of stock/unported #113 Vortecs! Now I don't feel so bad about not doing a valve job after all....

It's funny that there are several vendors selling ported Vortec heads for a fair chunk of change, but none of them as far as I know, publish any flow numbers. I'd love to see flow numbers (obviously) as well as photos of what they are doing to get those numbers (if they are in fact, significantly better than the "225/165" baseline). There's got to be someone out there who verified that they got what they paid for, with their ported Vortec heads?? Anyone?
 

James Thomas

"NO CLASS"
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Yea Tooky, stay tuned (well it is your thread) but I'm gonna drop some real ported Vortec flow numbers in a couple weeks and pic's too. Trust me when I say that you do get what you pay for and that there is a huge difference between "hack job" head work and the real deal.

___________
James
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Tooky - you gotta be looking at a 4L80E install now mate surely?
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

Yeah I've committed ($) towards the 4L80E for next year already, but right now it's only a $9 part to repair my 700R4 which has been performing very well (in terms of being able to hold the shifts properly, and still drop 1000 RPM on a WOT upshift). Pretty hard to justify $5500 vs. $9 :) Hopefully next time my 700R4 breaks, it's catastrophic! (Did I just say that?)
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

lol - with 625 bhp I don't think you will have long to wait!!

As far as your 4l80E install...now THAT will be a useful write up!!

Can I get a copy of your bin - my engine will need something like it as I am putting 50# injectors into my vortecs and yours would be a good place to start even with my smaller turbo :tdown: - PM?

Running out of money REAL fast on this :rotf:

Love the updates mate - keep em coming :tup:
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
6 Days Later, 700R4 Trans is Fixed!

6 Days Later, 700R4 Trans is Fixed!

Transmission Repairs
#0044 is back on the road hitting all 4 gears! :D :woot:

My 300M billet anchor pin came in Wednesday, and I had an opportunity to borrow the use of a lift the same night, so I opened up the transmission and dropped the valve body and it was just as I suspected!! Another sheared 2-4 band anchor pin!

2-4anchorpin_repair1josh.jpg

2-4anchorpin_repair2diagram.jpg



New 300M Billet anchor pin $9 from www.bowtieoverdrives.com, next to my FIRST (2005) broken stock anchor pin:

billet700r4_anchorpin2.jpg



The 2nd broken anchor pin, the one that just broke last Thursday:

2-4anchorpin_2ndbrokenpin.jpg



My advice to ANYONE racing their 700R4 is to put the damn billet anchor pin in when you have the chance!! $9 in the beginning would have saved me 1 tranny R&R, and 1 valve body drop to replace the 2 that I broke. :doh: :sick:

I'm glad I was able to fix it without having to R&R the trans this time! It took me about 4.5 hours to do. I found a chunk of the band about 0.5"x1.5" laying in the pan, I think it chipped off after the pin broke and jammed the band against the case.

Back on the road
Fortunately, after putting it back together, it hits 2nd and 4th as hard as ever at part throttle. At WOT it seems about the same as before but I'm starting to get nervous about whether this tranny can handle the torque the motor's putting out now... :roll:
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
High Boost Quarter Mile Testing


With the trans problems out of the way, I quickly resumed pushing the motor harder than ever. Added another 1-2* timing at high RPM since the knock has been so low. Boy it really screams now. I have a Datamaster file showing the tires start spinning at the 25-35 MPH stage (the middle and top of 1st gear)!! I also tweaked the boost a little higher. :D (17-22 PSI)

Check this out!!

vortec_11.22-119_dm_qmc.png



WaHoo!! This thing is working out just like I hoped & planned! I also got a 7.1 @ 98 1/8 mi on another DM run I did tonight. My personal best (from 2003) was 11.79 @ 114 with a 7.53 @ 93 MPH 1/8mi time. So that's a big difference! :lol: :p

I forgot to shift 2nd gear higher so it short-shifted at only 4800 on the "11.2 @ 119" DM run. Check out how well the knock is controlled! The wheel spin seems to cause the knock at the beginning. You can see my rollercoaster boost control :(, but also my (finally) rock-flat WOT Air Fuel Ratios! :D


This Saturday... DRAG RACING vs. another low 11 second SYCLONE!!

Check this out. My local Syclone friend Adam has an RPM 4 bolt unported Vortec motor, 412 cam, GTQ67 turbo, giant A2A, and the rest setup similar to mine (SMC dual nozzle alky, both trucks Ostrich-tuned by me), and he just surprised himself by running an 11.3 @ 116 a few weeks ago with a malfunctioning/disabled TCC lockup. Now he has his lockup fixed and we are going to have our FIRST race since we both built up our motors!! (We've been racing each other since the high 13s in 2002).

Last time we raced (click for full story), I still had the stock heads/cam, but I got him out of the hole and then around 70 MPH he blew past me and won. Now we're gonna find out if my vortec-headed light porting and bigger cam full weight truck handicapped with a maxxed-out PT51 turbo, has what it takes to outdo his proven low 11 second GTQ67 412-cammed truck! :rock: Hopefully we can get a video! I know we'll both be launching the SHIT out of our trucks trying to get ahead!! :lol: :rotf:
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Shined up the Truck for the Track

Shined up the Truck for the Track

I've got 444mi now on the new heads/cam. I'm so happy with the truck tonight, I broke out the elbow grease and handwaxed the damn thing!

vortec_freshwax1.jpg



Here's what the cab looks like inside:

vortec_cab_interior.jpg



Here's the engine after the ABS delete:

vortec_engine_bay1.jpg




Tach/Speedometer Videos under High Boost

I thought it would be cool to hear and watch the rate the tach/speedometer rise, it's almost like being in the truck. (well sort of).

Video #1 (1.3MB) - 1 PSI Launch, 0-60 Run @ 17-21 PSI. You can hear the tires squeal when I first hit it, and then again at the top of 1st. I let it short shift on this run (by mistake). It was hard to hold the camera and drive one-handed, so you can sort of tell where the G-Forces are by when the camera goes blurry.. :lol:

Video #2 (1.3MB) - 2nd gear roll into throttle, WOT to 80 MPH. (This one also was short-shifted.) Watch the speedometer soar from 50MPH-80MPH. Can you tell I'm having fun?? :D

Hope nobody thinks I'm "talking too much" about my truck - but I suppose that's what the Member's Projects are for. :)
 

Quickstop [UK]

Combating adversyty.
Re: Lower intake swap / Vortec head & cam install on stock bottom end

holy shit mate!! Nice one! Just re-read your post and saw the DM screen (incidentally, how do you save those screen shots?)

Are you seriously doing 0-60 in around 3 secs? That must be incredible!!

Keep talking! This info is awesome. Nice to see someone enjoying the truck rather than selling parts or asking for info about how to fix somehting!

Really impressive - think you have earned yourself a beer or two!

Mark
 
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