Juice

[bezerk]

Re: Juice

I do believe Nolan is going to raise the bar for the AWD Ty's.

I too understand about being different. But think about what you're trying to achieve. Nitrous and more boost are essentially the same things. Pure boost with something like methanol is easier to control. The trucks are fragile to begin with. There are plenty of ways to be different, but there are proven ways NOT to be different. Nitrous is leaning to that realm. I too would like to do it, but I trust a lot of peoples' experiences here and decided against it. Not to mention, I just took the money that it would cost for a nitrous system and invested it in a bigger turbo.

But hey, if you want to try.......I also applaud you for it. There is nothing wrong with seeing things yourself. I think if you were to use nitrous, it would be done to offset the low end response of turbo lag, and then let the turbo take over, leaving the nitrous off at that point.

Nitrous when introduced into the combustion chamber breaks down to nitrogen and oxygen. So you're just simply introducing more air into the combustion chamber. Your turbo does the same thing. Why pay for something that you can achieve for free other than to offset when the turbo can't provide you with this result (turbo lag)?

Just some input. But good luck either way. I'll hopefully eventually be around the ET that your goals are currently at.

i really like that part of using nos and than let the turbo take it over, altough a boost launch would be hard to do.

 

[crashing_sux]

Re: Juice

I'm not saying it would hold together but for all out power I don't see how you could get as much theoretically with boost as nitro. A turbo is compressing air that is %20 oxygen, nitro is 33% oxygen, compress that as well and there is no way you're not going to get more power. Plus, nitro is cold, adding boost heats things up. Sure, alky or intercooling can help with that but when it comes down to it nitro always has the potential for more power, not because of what it's cramming into the engine (oxygen) but because of what it's not cramming in there, nitrogen, which takes up space that could have been filled with oxygen and doesn't make you any power.

Not saying you should try it, but that I don't see boost making as much power when you get down to it as boost and nitrous.

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Juice

I'm not saying it would hold together but for all out power I don't see how you could get as much theoretically with boost as nitro. A turbo is compressing air that is %20 oxygen, nitro is 33% oxygen, compress that as well and there is no way you're not going to get more power. Plus, nitro is cold, adding boost heats things up. Sure, alky or intercooling can help with that but when it comes down to it nitro always has the potential for more power, not because of what it's cramming into the engine (oxygen) but because of what it's not cramming in there, nitrogen, which takes up space that could have been filled with oxygen and doesn't make you any power.

Not saying you should try it, but that I don't see boost making as much power when you get down to it as boost and nitrous.

Well, I understand your point in the beginning of your post. However I am simply making the point that the overall result is the same. As far as the amount of oxygen, nitrogren breakdown from nitrous vs the air we breathe.......sure there is a difference. But you make a good point. I still think one could make more power in our trucks with a turbo safely than they could with a 300+ shot of nitrous.

 

[crashing_sux]

Re: Juice

I feel the same way, no nitrous for me on this truck.

 

[NecroWolf]

Re: Juice

ya guys all mentioned the higher oxygen content and all that good stuffs, but come now no one remembers that when hit nitrous exits the jet at like -127 F. i think that would be extremely benificial to the turbo at higher boost lvl or even stock boost lvls. i think with proper timing and ramping of the shot it should be real interesting and if i send a rod through the hood well that'll make a hell of a picture. anyways i make my living as a mechanic so if i pop an engine i pop and engine. i haven't even picked my truck up yet and i'm starting to look for another engine to build up and have ready to drop in.

 

[crashing_sux]

Re: Juice

... Plus, nitro is cold...

C'mon now, I'm a nobody now? Maybe you just aren't reading closely enough

 

[PPI Typhoon]

Re: Juice

ya guys all mentioned the higher oxygen content and all that good stuffs, but come now no one remembers that when hit nitrous exits the jet at like -127 F. i think that would be extremely benificial to the turbo at higher boost lvl or even stock boost lvls. i think with proper timing and ramping of the shot it should be real interesting and if i send a rod through the hood well that'll make a hell of a picture. anyways i make my living as a mechanic so if i pop an engine i pop and engine. i haven't even picked my truck up yet and i'm starting to look for another engine to build up and have ready to drop in.

Well, I've had IAT's of 58 degrees with the outside air in the 80's. Alky is cheaper than nitrous.

Granted, not as cold as nitrous, but does a damn fine job!

 

[Try Me]

Re: Juice

Everyone here has made some valid points, however most sound like they come from little or no experience with the "squeeze." It does work a good bit differently with a fuel injected car as opposed to carburated vehicles. Also, you dont use it all of the time, short bursts for 10-15 seconds at the track when jetted correctly with a wet shot system would be virtually unnoticable on a built bottom end. I have used nitrous a good bit on a couple cars and have some other friends in the mustang world that use it every weekend on engines that have little modification to the internals. My favorite example is the hondas. I ran my bone stock b16a on a 75 shot every weekend and, more than i should have, during the week in the evenings. I always had the bottle in the car and hooked up, and filled the bottle almost twice a week for 2 summers strait. It is not cost effective when used like that thats for sure, at 20-35 dollars a fill up, but it makes incredible, reliable horsepower. After running that motor to the fullest of its little capability (13.50-13.55 every weekend, every run) it was alot of fun and very consistant. I tore that motor down and it looked brand new inside. no signs of detonation or fatigue to any parts. We had another honda that was a forged internal shortblock with stock head. the car had a t3/t4 turbo, fmic, stock cylinder head from an integra (dohc vtec) and a 100shot wet nos kit. the car went 11.00's every weekend for a season and a half without problems. then we actually sold the short block and went to a larger engine (1.8 up to 2.0). Those cars were alot of fun and other than filling the bottle, the Nitrous required little or no maintanence and always provided reliable results.

I have also seen many carburated cars blow back through the carburator and catch on fire. most of that is tunning errors from a lack of experience and a little too much "gung ho" approach.

I say go for it. As long as you dont mind drilling some holes in the bed to mount the bottle, and you dont mind paying to fill that bottle, and you dont go crazy with the shot and the boost, and you tune accordingly, and you jet correctly (a lot of ands but you cant be too careful) you should have a lot of fun with it for what is a relatively small investment compaired to turbo upgrades, chips, etc. There is no doubt that nitrous is effective, especially if your main usage is at the drag strip. there are still much more cars running nitrous at the track than there are running turbos...

and besides, when all the "ricers" ask if youve got "NAWSSSS" you can say "yea man!" LOL

 

[dgoodhue]

Re: Juice

One thing I have noticed about the really fast Turbo vehicles (9's or faster) is its seem like they use N2O for spool up. I noticed some ramp it out especaiily when using high boost 30+ psi.

Nitrous on a Stock Turbo and Stock Internals is a no no. The stock internals leave little room for error especially on at higher HP levels. Nitrous is great for turbo spoolup, but on the stock turbo and its marginal wastegate, it overboosts. Overboost plus higher HP on the stock engine equals broken parts.

My advice is if you using Nitrous get a different Turbo or an external wastegate. If your going to use it on the stock block, you had better be sure its running 100% perfert and it would be helpful to be a tuning expert.

 

[smeagol]

Re: Juice

Everyone keeps talking physics and how it works on other cars. Every time I've heard it used on a stock syty, the results either were A) bad or had B) no consequence, as nitrous wasn't used more than once or twice. Every so called success seems to be a wash, as you dig deeper and find out that the guy had a built motor, or he ran the nitrous once or twice only, then sold the truck.

I'm as open minded as the next guy (except for Renz, I think he spent time in prison, if you catch my drift), but it just isn't a good idea in a syty. Their first main weak point in the motor is their brittle hypereutectic pistons. Introducing nitrous into the chamber is not the same as introducing more air. If you look at a graph of pressure vs crank angle, you'll find that nitrous creates huge pressure spikes in the chamber as opposed to using turbocharged boost, and it is why turbocharged boost can be less destructive than nitrous on a motor. This is really the reason that the NMCA had huge battles going on. The smaller turbo motors were having much better luck than the mountain motors on nitrous. The nitrous motors were way more expensive and required rebuilds more often. You could help your chances, by really dialing in the nitrous (progressive kits etc), but even then, it is difficult to get a handle on, requiring bottle heaters to maintain pressure and so forth. The margin for error in tuning is very small, in an engine with weaker internals.

In the right motor, it'd work out very well IMO (better pistons, rods, strong bottom end). If you are dead set on using it, i'd use it only to spool the motor on a bigger turbo, as you see many people do in the import world. Set a window setup, for the nitrous to come on at above 80% throttle, at a few psi of vacuum, and off at 12-15psi (whatever is a few psi below your boost level).

Anyways, it's not our place to tell you what to do and what not to do on your truck. I just think that it's in your best interest NOT to run it on a stock motor. Might as well just build a new one for nitrous, and sell your stocker. You say you haven't heard of anyone running nitrous on the syty - I read that as "I haven't heard of anyone running nitrous successfully on a syty". Many buildups and ideas have been tried. The really good ones create a stir, and those are the ones you hear discussed on the board. Bad ideas fall by the wayside, or you don't hear their results due to ego problems, or the owner selling his truck and leaving the scene.

 

[crashing_sux]

Re: Juice

If you're dead set on it you might want to try talking with Phil. He's the one person I know of here who has tried it, hasn't blown a motor yet, and actually did see gains from it. His legendary 10 on a stock block was done using nitrous if memory serves.

 

[NecroWolf]

Re: Juice

you guys put out a lot of good info there for both sides. gave me a lot to consider. i know the stock pistons aren't really gonna handle it, specially since it's a 100k motor in it. i liked the idea of using it to spool the turbo, but i think it wouldn't hurt to have a little extra power on hand for street racing and track time.

 

[NecroWolf]

Re: Juice

it was mentioned about a different intake? any suggestion or do i need to come up with my own?

 

[SeattleSy#1255]

Re: Juice

Everyone keeps talking physics and how it works on other cars. Every time I've heard it used on a stock syty, the results either were A) bad or had B) no consequence, as nitrous wasn't used more than once or twice. Every so called success seems to be a wash, as you dig deeper and find out that the guy had a built motor, or he ran the nitrous once or twice only, then sold the truck.

I'm as open minded as the next guy (except for Renz, I think he spent time in prison, if you catch my drift), but it just isn't a good idea in a syty. Their first main weak point in the motor is their brittle hypereutectic pistons. Introducing nitrous into the chamber is not the same as introducing more air. If you look at a graph of pressure vs crank angle, you'll find that nitrous creates huge pressure spikes in the chamber as opposed to using turbocharged boost, and it is why turbocharged boost can be less destructive than nitrous on a motor. This is really the reason that the NMCA had huge battles going on. The smaller turbo motors were having much better luck than the mountain motors on nitrous. The nitrous motors were way more expensive and required rebuilds more often. You could help your chances, by really dialing in the nitrous (progressive kits etc), but even then, it is difficult to get a handle on, requiring bottle heaters to maintain pressure and so forth. The margin for error in tuning is very small, in an engine with weaker internals.

In the right motor, it'd work out very well IMO (better pistons, rods, strong bottom end). If you are dead set on using it, i'd use it only to spool the motor on a bigger turbo, as you see many people do in the import world. Set a window setup, for the nitrous to come on at above 80% throttle, at a few psi of vacuum, and off at 12-15psi (whatever is a few psi below your boost level).

Anyways, it's not our place to tell you what to do and what not to do on your truck. I just think that it's in your best interest NOT to run it on a stock motor. Might as well just build a new one for nitrous, and sell your stocker. You say you haven't heard of anyone running nitrous on the syty - I read that as "I haven't heard of anyone running nitrous successfully on a syty". Many buildups and ideas have been tried. The really good ones create a stir, and those are the ones you hear discussed on the board. Bad ideas fall by the wayside, or you don't hear their results due to ego problems, or the owner selling his truck and leaving the scene.

you may be wise to listen to Brian. Again, it isn't our place to tell you what to do, but you did ask for opinions. These guys mentioned like Phil and Brian are two of the best tuners around for these vehicles. I don't know your knowledge, but if two of the best told you something otherwise, why would you still consider it? You are thinking out of the box, that is great. But its not something totally new. It's just proven to not be the best idea. If you are a tuning guru, then you'll know you just added another major number to the math problem by adding nitrous. If you are worried about spool up and you seem to be talking stock motor, spend the money on a good tranny and a higher stall TC...mated with the proper turbo, your results will likely be easier, better, and less dangerous.

 

[Tydriver]

Re: Juice

it was mentioned about a different intake? any suggestion or do i need to come up with my own?

There are a number of options out there. Some people have run the DAYTONA DASH intake (think thats what its called)..

Theres also a new piece from EDELBROCK and I have even seen pics of a 350 ramjet intake cut down and rewelded back together ...

Anything HAS to provide better Airflow than the stocker.. Thats the biggest issue with the intake is lack of flow.. Uneven flow of air + N20 = buncha small parts in your oil pan.. Alot of people have tried to run N2O on stock intake with questionable results. (talking bigger than a 50-75 shot here) and I strongly believe the intake has ALOT to do with this..

Talk to anyone that KNOWS anything about their motor thats running quick times and they will tell you that spark plugs come out all different colors with stock intake.. This tells me uneven airflow & improper combustion.. I forget which cylinders it is on our trucks (me thinks is back two) but there are 2 that run alot hotter than the rest due to this very problem.,.

 

[NecroWolf]

Re: Juice

some of you guys are really cool about this pointing me in the right direction and giving me your wisdom i appriciate it

 

[Ron 92ty]

Re: Juice

good luck to ya let us know how it goes. im intrested. the cheaper the performance the better