E85
- Thread starter canadian
- Start date
canadian
sy in progress
Re: E85
So, back to the question at hand. I didn't start this post to argue the pro's and con's of alky injection, intercoolers, turbos, bla bla bla. I just want to know what's needed to convert a SyTy to run on E85. Looks like some have done it without changing any hardware, but everything I've read says that (at a minimum), the tank should be cleaned out since E85 is likened to a "cleaning agent" that can dislodge some of the sludge in a factory system and clog injectors, leading to bad things.
The other things I've heard are the corrosive features of E85 tend to lead to degradataion of some fuel system components that can't withstand the ethanol. Manufacturers have been making FFV (Flex Fuel Vehicles) for years now, but until recently nobody was interested in it because gas was cheap, and CAFE standards weren't as tough.
Some home-brew water injection systems have been using FFV injectors since they can withstand the corrosion factors that most fuel injectors can't. Wiil regular injectors (say 50 lbers) handle E85?
So, back to the question at hand. I didn't start this post to argue the pro's and con's of alky injection, intercoolers, turbos, bla bla bla. I just want to know what's needed to convert a SyTy to run on E85. Looks like some have done it without changing any hardware, but everything I've read says that (at a minimum), the tank should be cleaned out since E85 is likened to a "cleaning agent" that can dislodge some of the sludge in a factory system and clog injectors, leading to bad things.
The other things I've heard are the corrosive features of E85 tend to lead to degradataion of some fuel system components that can't withstand the ethanol. Manufacturers have been making FFV (Flex Fuel Vehicles) for years now, but until recently nobody was interested in it because gas was cheap, and CAFE standards weren't as tough.
Some home-brew water injection systems have been using FFV injectors since they can withstand the corrosion factors that most fuel injectors can't. Wiil regular injectors (say 50 lbers) handle E85?
Re: E85
i have a high compression (9.3:1) ballance shaft motor with a custom grind cam, and LS1 valve train in my syclone that runs E85 daily. all i can say is i love it. it has MLS exhaust gaskets, braided stainless fuel lines, and 65lb/hr high impedance injectors. things i still need to add are a flex fuel pump, and a stainless steel screen type fuel filter (the paper ones dont like the water content in the E85 and will swell up) i also have my fuel tank sealed, vent line is plugged, to help the alky from absorbing additional water. its humid here in the south. my gas milage is around 10mpg but i think thats acceptable for how fast this truck is, how cheap the fuel is, and the fact that i only do city driving, and cant keep my foot out of it.
as far as the tune, i started with another custom chip i had been working on, and i slowly increased the E85/93 ratio, and continuously retuned, till i felt like i had a handle on what kinda AFR's the E85 wanted. i made a couple different chips at varying E85 percentages so i can run the truck on whatever gas i have available. dont want to get stuck somewhere without any fuel. i kept tuning on it because i keep seeing improvements in drvability...... iv pretty much gotten a built motor to behave every bit as good as a stocker, even on the hippy fuel. i put the chip up forsale on my website, but no one has even asked about it. in the future we would like to offer all the current recipe chips with additional E85 settings, but right now, because of limited availability, there semms to be little to no market or the E85 programs.
e
i have a high compression (9.3:1) ballance shaft motor with a custom grind cam, and LS1 valve train in my syclone that runs E85 daily. all i can say is i love it. it has MLS exhaust gaskets, braided stainless fuel lines, and 65lb/hr high impedance injectors. things i still need to add are a flex fuel pump, and a stainless steel screen type fuel filter (the paper ones dont like the water content in the E85 and will swell up) i also have my fuel tank sealed, vent line is plugged, to help the alky from absorbing additional water. its humid here in the south. my gas milage is around 10mpg but i think thats acceptable for how fast this truck is, how cheap the fuel is, and the fact that i only do city driving, and cant keep my foot out of it.
as far as the tune, i started with another custom chip i had been working on, and i slowly increased the E85/93 ratio, and continuously retuned, till i felt like i had a handle on what kinda AFR's the E85 wanted. i made a couple different chips at varying E85 percentages so i can run the truck on whatever gas i have available. dont want to get stuck somewhere without any fuel. i kept tuning on it because i keep seeing improvements in drvability...... iv pretty much gotten a built motor to behave every bit as good as a stocker, even on the hippy fuel. i put the chip up forsale on my website, but no one has even asked about it. in the future we would like to offer all the current recipe chips with additional E85 settings, but right now, because of limited availability, there semms to be little to no market or the E85 programs.
e
Re: E85
MLS header gaskets, braided lines, aftermarket fuel rails and regulator, aftermarket injectors, stainless steel fuel filter, and a flex fuel safe walbro...... doesnt sound like its very stock at all...... but i guess that depends on who ya ask.
keep in mind, the extreem corrosiveness comes from methanol rather than ethanol. they are extreemly different, and really shouldnt be compared to closely, as they have almost nothing in common.
e
MLS header gaskets, braided lines, aftermarket fuel rails and regulator, aftermarket injectors, stainless steel fuel filter, and a flex fuel safe walbro...... doesnt sound like its very stock at all...... but i guess that depends on who ya ask.
keep in mind, the extreem corrosiveness comes from methanol rather than ethanol. they are extreemly different, and really shouldnt be compared to closely, as they have almost nothing in common.
e
epix
Typhoon
Re: E85
sorry to bring up a slightly older thread but my town (population 3000) just got an E85 station and says it is 110 octane.
My Typhoon has 50lb injectors and also a progressive alky kit. Is it possible to run both alky and e85 or is that pointless and just adding up to a tuning nightmare?
sorry to bring up a slightly older thread but my town (population 3000) just got an E85 station and says it is 110 octane.
My Typhoon has 50lb injectors and also a progressive alky kit. Is it possible to run both alky and e85 or is that pointless and just adding up to a tuning nightmare?
warmpancakes
New member
Re: E85
Yes its possible yes it will be a tuning nightmare :tup:
epix said:
Yes its possible yes it will be a tuning nightmare :tup:
Jer
Don't taze me bro!
Re: E85
No, you're fine. Gas stations have been adding 10-15% ethanol to their gas for MANY years now and usually more so in the winter time. It supposedly clears up the emissions and causes the cars to run better. Not only does no car I've ever driven drive better with it (most noticeably worse) but ethanol has less butane power and takes 20-25% more fuel for the same amount of power so your fuel economy goes down. Fuel economy goes down and you return to the pump more often... stations make more money because you're getting poorer fuel economy and they're 'watering' down their fuel with an additive that costs considerably less (E85 costs $1.99/gal at most stations) so in the long run.. we get the shaft.
akwilks said:
No, you're fine. Gas stations have been adding 10-15% ethanol to their gas for MANY years now and usually more so in the winter time. It supposedly clears up the emissions and causes the cars to run better. Not only does no car I've ever driven drive better with it (most noticeably worse) but ethanol has less butane power and takes 20-25% more fuel for the same amount of power so your fuel economy goes down. Fuel economy goes down and you return to the pump more often... stations make more money because you're getting poorer fuel economy and they're 'watering' down their fuel with an additive that costs considerably less (E85 costs $1.99/gal at most stations) so in the long run.. we get the shaft.
canadian
sy in progress
Re: E85
The first E85 public facility will soon be open in the state of Florida. The clean burning fuel will be sold in Tallahassee.
"Our goal is to be the first in the state [of Florida]," said Joe Campbell, director of wholesale operations for Southwest Georgia Oil Co. in Bainbridge, Georgia. "Most of us in the industry are trying to find ways to reduce dependency on foreign oil."
The station in Tallahassee will be located at 3500 North Monroe Street and should be open within the next month. There are two other E85 facilities in the state which are only accessible to fleet vehicles; one located at Hurlburt Field Airforce Base and the other at Kennedy Space Center.
"The supply is paramount right now. Ethanol is difficult to get," said Roger Listenberger, director of E85 fuel networking for the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. "Every day the supply is improving. In six months to a year, more stores will be opening."
The NEVC worked diligently to pass legislation in Florida to allow the retail sale of E85 (see press release located here). The NEVC has also provided financial support to this new site in the form of a grant and our national imaging package.
The first E85 public facility will soon be open in the state of Florida. The clean burning fuel will be sold in Tallahassee.
"Our goal is to be the first in the state [of Florida]," said Joe Campbell, director of wholesale operations for Southwest Georgia Oil Co. in Bainbridge, Georgia. "Most of us in the industry are trying to find ways to reduce dependency on foreign oil."
The station in Tallahassee will be located at 3500 North Monroe Street and should be open within the next month. There are two other E85 facilities in the state which are only accessible to fleet vehicles; one located at Hurlburt Field Airforce Base and the other at Kennedy Space Center.
"The supply is paramount right now. Ethanol is difficult to get," said Roger Listenberger, director of E85 fuel networking for the National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition. "Every day the supply is improving. In six months to a year, more stores will be opening."
The NEVC worked diligently to pass legislation in Florida to allow the retail sale of E85 (see press release located here). The NEVC has also provided financial support to this new site in the form of a grant and our national imaging package.
phoonTy
Truckless. For now.
Re: E85
Here in Greeley we have one of the few E85 stations in Northern CO. Right now I believe E85 is around $1.99/gallon.
After I get my Typhoon back on the road and fix some other little things, I will start the long process (lack of money to make it short) of getting it ready for E85. My Ty is stock right now aside from 3" exhaust, K&N, hi-flow Cat, and electronic boost controller. It will stay close to stock as well, just adding the necessary components to safely run E85.
And with the capability of Code59 and a custom tune, I'm liking the future! I don't really care about mpg because you gotta pay to play. :tup:
Here in Greeley we have one of the few E85 stations in Northern CO. Right now I believe E85 is around $1.99/gallon.
After I get my Typhoon back on the road and fix some other little things, I will start the long process (lack of money to make it short) of getting it ready for E85. My Ty is stock right now aside from 3" exhaust, K&N, hi-flow Cat, and electronic boost controller. It will stay close to stock as well, just adding the necessary components to safely run E85.
And with the capability of Code59 and a custom tune, I'm liking the future! I don't really care about mpg because you gotta pay to play. :tup:
skwayb
NWSTP
Re: E85
Ok this brings up a subject of what to tune your car to AFR wise if you are running E85 or 10-15% ethanol. Here is a good post I saw another Thirdgen that explains what AFR to calculate.
Also here is a good chart with different AFRs for different fuels. This will help you figure out what your AFR should be in the formula above. Gasoline 14.7
Ok this brings up a subject of what to tune your car to AFR wise if you are running E85 or 10-15% ethanol. Here is a good post I saw another Thirdgen that explains what AFR to calculate.
Also here is a good chart with different AFRs for different fuels. This will help you figure out what your AFR should be in the formula above. Gasoline 14.7
- LPG (Propane) 15.5
- Methanol 6.4
- Ethanol 9.0
- CNG 17.2
- Diesel 14.6
blk00z28
Forced to by choice
Re: E85
What does being in closed loop have to do with the motor running a higher AFR if the 02's cant compute AFR, but rather "Lambda?"
And how can it go from running richer with the gas only, to leaner on the gas/Ethanol mix? If Ethanol drop's AFR's then what said in the quote makes no sense to me. ::scratch's head:: (Gas = 12.5 AFR. But Gas/Ethanol mix ='s 13.0 AFR..wtf?) How can Ethanol drop AFR's but not when mixxed with gas.. Or am I not reading this right?
What does being in closed loop have to do with the motor running a higher AFR if the 02's cant compute AFR, but rather "Lambda?"
And how can it go from running richer with the gas only, to leaner on the gas/Ethanol mix? If Ethanol drop's AFR's then what said in the quote makes no sense to me. ::scratch's head:: (Gas = 12.5 AFR. But Gas/Ethanol mix ='s 13.0 AFR..wtf?) How can Ethanol drop AFR's but not when mixxed with gas.. Or am I not reading this right?
Daryl H
Donating Member
Re: E85
They left out a couple of words that might help ya.
Normal gasoline driving the fuel ratio is 14.7 AFR and they tuned to 12.5 for WOT.
The lower the number of course the more gas you are running.
Since it takes more ethanol to make up for the energy value of gasoline and by not changing the tune of the vehicle you go from 12.5 AFR @ WOT to 13.0 AFR @ WOT with the 10% ethanol mix. In open loop the ECM gives X amount of fuel for Y amount of air and ignores the O2 sensor since it only works at 14.7 AFR (narrowband).
Now while driving part throttle the ECM will add or subtract fuel as required with the O2 sensor information (closed loop mode). However since the ECM still believes that you are only running pure gasoline it will correct for the alcohol blend. With the Lamba reading the O2 sensor will see that you are running leaner so it will add more fuel to the actual value of 14.13 AFR while the ECM believes and sees a ratio of 14.7.
Adding E85 without tuning your vehicle for it is a disaster waiting to happen
Well, this is how I read it.
My brain hurts now.
blk00z28 said:
What does being in closed loop have to do with the motor running a higher AFR if the 02's cant compute AFR, but rather "Lambda?"
And how can it go from running richer with the gas only, to leaner on the gas/Ethanol mix? If Ethanol drop's AFR's then what said in the quote makes no sense to me. ::scratch's head:: (Gas = 12.5 AFR. But Gas/Ethanol mix ='s 13.0 AFR..wtf?) How can Ethanol drop AFR's but not when mixxed with gas.. Or am I not reading this right?[/font]
They left out a couple of words that might help ya.
Normal gasoline driving the fuel ratio is 14.7 AFR and they tuned to 12.5 for WOT.
The lower the number of course the more gas you are running.
Since it takes more ethanol to make up for the energy value of gasoline and by not changing the tune of the vehicle you go from 12.5 AFR @ WOT to 13.0 AFR @ WOT with the 10% ethanol mix. In open loop the ECM gives X amount of fuel for Y amount of air and ignores the O2 sensor since it only works at 14.7 AFR (narrowband).
Now while driving part throttle the ECM will add or subtract fuel as required with the O2 sensor information (closed loop mode). However since the ECM still believes that you are only running pure gasoline it will correct for the alcohol blend. With the Lamba reading the O2 sensor will see that you are running leaner so it will add more fuel to the actual value of 14.13 AFR while the ECM believes and sees a ratio of 14.7.
Adding E85 without tuning your vehicle for it is a disaster waiting to happen
Well, this is how I read it.
My brain hurts now.