Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

WyoSyclone

Active member
Hi Guys,
Since I've had my Sy I haven't been able to verify TDC due to the engine builder putting an aftermarket cover on that didn't have a timing pointer. I finally got my ATI pointer installed, and then started looking for the best way to verify TDC. I searched all over the internet and found whistles, scopes, balance beams, etc. None of them seemed to be accurate enough, or easy enough to use. So, here's what I came up with.

I remembered U-tube manometers from my physics class days and decided that may be a pretty cool way to measure piston movement. Here's the manometer - available from Dwyer instruments for $27. The black upright is my wife's lamp.... shhhh!
tdc1.jpg



To connect it to the #1 cylinder I used the tubing from my compression tester, a length of 1/2" vinyl tubing from Lowes, slipped it over each end, and that was it!
tdc2.jpg



I wired the throttle open...
tdc3.jpg



And here's the displacement of fluid from just a few degrees of turning the engine over...
tdc4.jpg

The fluid will rise about 12" in the tube in about 45 degrees rotation of the crank... pretty darn accurate. You have to practice a few times, and it helps to have someone call out when the fluid stops rising. Leakage past the rings is almost nil, so you don't have to worry about the fluid suddenly dropping.

It's really interesting to take the engine through a couple of revolutions and see the valves opening (fluid dropping).

Here's a link to a YouTube video I did of it.... I'll probably do another video when my wife gets home next week so she can do some camera work and I can show you the fluid moving (can't find my tripod)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys80A6fL0_4


The cool thing about this is that you rotate the engine normally until the fluid stops, then you can go past TDC about 30 degrees and turn the engine backwards until the fluid stops. This will give you that null point in crankshaft rotation where the piston really isn't moving (appears to be about 2 degrees). I put a line of paint at each of these locations, and that way I can decide if I want my true TDC point at the point where the piston stops, or a few degrees later, where the big end of the rod is just slightly past TDC.

Pretty cool experiment for a small investment.
 

4C FED

Absolutum Dominium
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Nice setup. So much better than that stupid piston stop that threads into the spark plug hole.
 

Foot Performance

Donating Member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

You can do this with a cylender leak down test also

You put about 5 psi in the cylender when you think you are close to tdc and rotate till you see the psi peak when it start to move down you are past tdc

I dont like to roll motors backwards to much so I take it slow

The slower you go the more accurate you get but then you have to ask your self how acurate is a timeing light.
 

MRKING

New Parts for Old Trucks
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

just in case anyone else is looking and doesnt have one of those at home . :lol:

ghettosled said:
pull all spark plugs.. turn motor over by hand with finger on #1 cylinder spark plug hole. When air starts coming out take your piston stop and screw it in till it bottoms out.. Helps if you are within 30 degrees of TDC.. once you feel tension, mark the balancer and count the amount of times you unscrew the stop.. continue rotating the motor over past TDC.. screw piston stop back in the same amount of threads it came out with.. turn motor counter clockwise till it touches.. mark it, and the middle of your marks is TDC.
 

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

:2cents: Maybe it's me but I found the "screw a piston stop in the spark plug hole" method rather inaccurate. If yur turning the engine by hand there's no need to block throttle open, valves are closed on that cyl anyway. Also for "Foot" IMHO there is no problem turning the engine one, or less, revolution backwards. Yes the oil pump is going backwards but it rotates at half engine RPM so what, it went 1/2 turn maybe.:2cents:
I like this method. On first read it seems that it would be very accurate if done with care.:tup:
 

turboj91

New member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

I like the "pull the cylinder head and get the dial indicator" method the best.






jk
 

Foot Performance

Donating Member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Don W. said:
:2cents: Maybe it's me but I found the "screw a piston stop in the spark plug hole" method rather inaccurate. If yur turning the engine by hand there's no need to block throttle open, valves are closed on that cyl anyway. Also for "Foot" IMHO there is no problem turning the engine one, or less, revolution backwards. Yes the oil pump is going backwards but it rotates at half engine RPM so what, it went 1/2 turn maybe.:2cents:
I like this method. On first read it seems that it would be very accurate if done with care.:tup:

Turning the engine backward yeah less than one turn probably wont hurt it but when you turn the engine back ward you put the slack of the timing chain in the wrong place. It shouldnt change cam timing but it makes it easier to jump a tooth especially on this type of gear with a better timing chain you wont have many problem :tup:
 

turbodig

Active member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Don W. said:
:2cents: Maybe it's me but I found the "screw a piston stop in the spark plug hole" method rather inaccurate.

It's very accurate, when you do the -/+ 30 degree method. Especially when there's a degree wheel involved.

One thing to note- It's a good idea to have a plastic cap on the end of the bolt part of the stop. *Particularly* if you have coated pistons. Cost me a piston and a head gasket to find that out...


Poor-mans piston stop:

Go to checker/autozone/etc and get what's called a "spark plug non fouler". get a 3/8" bolt, and drill out the bottom of the non-fouler so the bolt goes through. Grind a 3/8" nut down until it fits down in the non-fouler, and JB-weld the sucker in.


I love Rob's solution, though... it's wonderfully over the top. :)
Plus, he's part of the way to a DIY flow-bench... get an incline manometer and hook up the shop vac...
 

WyoSyclone

Active member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Thanks for the comments guys. I like Foot's leak down tester method too :D
Kinda' fun figuring out new ways to do things...
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

turboj91 said:
I like the "pull the cylinder head and get the dial indicator" method the best.
Like this??

deck_bridge.jpg


:lol:


On a serious note, I was wondering about turning the engine "backwards" too. How do you know the correct direction?? Is it clockwise facing the engine from under the hood?
 

Foot Performance

Donating Member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Tooky said:
On a serious note, I was wondering about turning the engine "backwards" too. How do you know the correct direction?? Is it clockwise facing the engine from under the hood?

Yeah always tighing the dampner bolt :tup:
 

WyoSyclone

Active member
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Tooky said:
On a serious note, I was wondering about turning the engine "backwards" too. How do you know the correct direction?? Is it clockwise facing the engine from under the hood?

look at the fan blades on the fan and alternator... runs counterclockwise when facing the engine from the front.
 

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Finding TDC - Top Dead Center

Clockwise, as in to the right, looking at the front. Which means the fan will go left. Very few left-hand engines out there except in boats with two engines. They'll do one left and one right, because of the torque, and I believe that's at the propeller. Another use for left-hand engines is in small to medium twin engine airplanes (one left, one right) again not due to torque itself but to a phenomenon called "P" factor.
 
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